5-13-21 New CDC Covid 19 "When You’ve Been Fully Vaccinated" guidlines...

[Wishing on a star]

I am also wondering about a Domino Effect here.

I can definitely see this...  One player is brave enough, and then others reconsider.

Power in numbers....   United we stand.

I wonder if and when (how soon) Princess might issue a statement.

 

it seems that RCI, and any other cruise line that does this, is effectively 'daring' the CDC to actually come after them.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Wishing on a star

[muggo11]

10 hours ago, gmjc2 said:

I researched this and found that some ports are state owned but not others. The local county governs the port. Some are governed by federal also. So the whole thing is a big chaotic mess!

Yes, it is complicated. When the local government in Key West sought to limit cruises to smaller ones at their port, the Governor objected.  This, too, may be a lengthy jurisdictional battle. 

The Feds rule when it comes to maritime law.  I don’t see a way around this.  The CDC and vaccination requirements will, imho, prevail. I would cruise without the vaccine requirements but I would prefer not to.  My Carnival stock will do better with vaccine requirements as well!  
 

[sept10dsm]

7 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Better not be taking methotrexate.

 

A small study on patients in New York and Germany found that a quarter of people who take a common drug for inflammatory types of arthritis mounted a weaker immune system response to the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine than those not taking the medication.

 

For some, these “weaker” responses involved lower levels of antibodies, but most of the patients taking the drug failed to generate an adequate boost in other key immune system cells, called CD8+ killer T cells, that can help prevent coronavirus infection.

 

The drug, called methotrexate, is one of the most effective and widely used medications for inflammatory conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis, which affects about 1.3 million Americans; it’s also used to treat some forms of cancer.

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article251865068.html?

Probably not the only medication either.  I guess the bottom line is they did the short trials on healthy people age 18 to 55.  Those with other illness or recovered or pregnant not included.  The whole thing coming out now about how many medications that help or can help with this disease were not allowed in many states or by many doctors.  I have personal experience with this and a sad day for medicine.  One must remember this is a medication that is only currently approved for emergency use only.  It doesn't prevent or stop the spread.  The recovered while some say they don't know how long the antibodies will last,  well, they surely don't know on a vaccine.  There was a NIH paper published in Jan that was referring to this saying they hoped the vaccine had the same as natural immunity.  I don't want to be a thorn in anyone's side but recovered in any other illness always present the best type of immunity.  There would be many many people coming up with a 'second case' if not.   There seems to be much coming out these past few days on the terrible behind the scenes things that were happening over the past year.  I hope this all straightens out soon and somehow cruising and all travel goes back.  

[Jemnibabe]

13 hours ago, PRNole47 said:

All this may be moot, since Royal Caribbean just reversed its mask policy and announced earlier today it will no longer have a mask mandate and will allow unmasked pax on its coming cruises. Maybe the first domino to fall?

 

If you think that is the first domino to fall, now RC has decided they are not going to require any vaccines on ships leaving from Florida and Texas.  Yep, they have given in to DeSantis.

[Jemnibabe]

6 minutes ago, Jemnibabe said:

If you think that is the first domino to fall, now RC has decided they are not going to require any vaccines on ships leaving from Florida and Texas.  Yep, they have given in to DeSantis.

https://www.miamiherald.com/.../tou.../article251909713.html

[gmjc2]

2 hours ago, Jemnibabe said:

https://www.miamiherald.com/.../tou.../article251909713.html

This makes no sense. If they do not require passengers to be vaccinated ,why would they need verification of vaccination or take a test at the pier?

If the change of protocol is to assuage Gov DeSantis then they cannot ask for verification!!!!  If this persists we will be cancelling our upcoming January cruise on RCL. No vaccination no cruise is our motto!!

[PRNole47]

2 hours ago, Jemnibabe said:

If you think that is the first domino to fall, now RC has decided they are not going to require any vaccines on ships leaving from Florida and Texas.  Yep, they have given in to DeSantis.

Boy oh boy! My 74 years are finding a way to protrude and go public on a daily basis! Ha! I just realized when I mentioned RC's "mask" mandate reversal, I meant to write "vacc" mandate reversal. "Mask" instead of "vacc" when it should have been the opposite.  

[nocl]

On 6/3/2021 at 2:22 PM, sept10dsm said:

Yes, understood, but with so many studies and proof the recovered actually have lasting antibodies, they apparently won't ever get the disease again.  The vaccine doesn't guarantee a person not to get sick.  

Actually your interpretation is not correct. Those that have gotten infected do have some level of immunity. But data does show that those antibody levels drop with time and at some point will drop below protective levels. Most likely around the 12 month point.

 

Also the level of immunity seems to vary considerably in those that have gotten infected. Some have have very low levels of protection and there have been cases of documented reinfection with in months of the original infection 

 

Third immunity caused by infection protects less from strains other than the one that caused the original infection. For example someone infected by the original strain does not seen to have gained much protection from b.1.351.

 

Bottom line is while having the illness does generate an immune response a vaccination will be needed to maintain that protection.

[beg3yrs]

1 hour ago, gmjc2 said:

This makes no sense. If they do not require passengers to be vaccinated ,why would they need verification of vaccination or take a test at the pier?

If the change of protocol is to assuage Gov DeSantis then they cannot ask for verification!!!!  If this persists we will be cancelling our upcoming January cruise on RCL. No vaccination no cruise is our motto!!

This sounds much like something I suggested in an earlier post. RCL will not ask for your vaccination information. The default treatment for passengers will be taking a test at the pier and probably lots of other restrictions during the cruise and in ports. However, passengers may voluntarily show their proof of vaccination in lieu of a test and then those restrictions are lifted. This is also in line with current CDC guidance. Everyone can sail as long as they're healthy.

[beg3yrs]

16 minutes ago, nocl said:

Actually your interpretation is not correct. Those that have gotten infected do have some level of immunity. But data does show that those antibody levels drop with time and at some point will drop below protective levels. Most likely around the 12 month point.

Studies are also showing that while antibody levels are dropping, there is another level of immunity, some cells in the bone marrow I believe, that do have a long-term "memory" of the virus and they will provide the long-term resistance to COVID-19.

16 minutes ago, nocl said:

 

Also the level of immunity seems to vary considerably in those that have gotten infected. Some have have very low levels of protection and there have been cases of documented reinfection with in months of the original infection 

Some evidence exists that there may be an interaction with some drugs being taken during both the infection and/or the vaccination. The effect is a reduction in the level of protection. Hopefully this will be better understood in the future and a patient can temporarily stop the medication for a couple of weeks to let the vaccine do its job effectively.

 

[sept10dsm]

More and more the idea that natural immunity through T cells and the antibodies is lasting.  There have been cases that while the antibodies have decreased the T cells hold memory thus will fight off reinfection.  If reinfection was so common there would be actual cases not just talk of it.  There have been doctors coming forward stating that the recovered should not be vaccinated only to be blocked.  I don't know which is better but I do know that with every other illness, recovered do not need a vaccine.  Many medications are not allowed to be used, even back in 2003 with sars hydroxiclorquine was found to help.  So seems the only method was go home, don't do much but wash hands and wait and see.  No other illness has been treated like this.  It's sad because some items did help and doctors in many states were forbidden even to prescribe (offlabel  like may drugs are)  NJ forbad it.  You know all this isn't perfect but no one mentioned any nutrients that may help.  I hope all this is soon figured out now that much is being let out as to what happened the past year.  As, an aside, I recently read that people that survived the 1918 flu, had T cells 80 to 90 yrs later.  So T cells have something positive to say in this illness in my opinion.  

[Jemnibabe]

13 minutes ago, beg3yrs said:

This sounds much like something I suggested in an earlier post. RCL will not ask for your vaccination information. The default treatment for passengers will be taking a test at the pier and probably lots of other restrictions during the cruise and in ports. However, passengers may voluntarily show their proof of vaccination in lieu of a test and then those restrictions are lifted. This is also in line with current CDC guidance. Everyone can sail as long as they're healthy.

And what happens in those ports that do not allow unvaccinated passengers?  That should be interesting.  Sounds to me like RC is chasing the money which is much more important than the health of their passengers.  IF anything goes awry on any of those sailings, it will also reflect poorly on Princess as well as the other cruise lines.  And the cruise lines have only DeSantis to thank for this political stunt.

 

Judy from SW Florida

[nocl]

7 minutes ago, beg3yrs said:

Studies are also showing that while antibody levels are dropping, there is another level of immunity, some cells in the bone marrow I believe, that do have a long-term "memory" of the virus and they will provide the long-term resistance to COVID-19.

Some evidence exists that there may be an interaction with some drugs being taken during both the infection and/or the vaccination. The effect is a reduction in the level of protection. Hopefully this will be better understood in the future and a patient can temporarily stop the medication for a couple of weeks to let the vaccine do its job effectively.

 

you are talking about t cells. which are also involved in immunity.

 

T cells are also involved in many auto immune illnesses such as RA and why the treatments for many of those illnesses  also result in poor immune response to vaccination.

 

Clearly T  Cells do play a role. The degree to which they help and their impact upon duration is still somewhat unknown.  There is increasing evidence that immune response does weaken with time, the real question is more one of when will a booster be needed  not if.

 

Willing be interested to see how T cells alone respond after antibody levels fall in terms of the cytokine storms which cause so much of the inflammatory damage in serious covid cases.

[ontheweb]

51 minutes ago, nocl said:

Actually your interpretation is not correct. Those that have gotten infected do have some level of immunity. But data does show that those antibody levels drop with time and at some point will drop below protective levels. Most likely around the 12 month point.

 

Also the level of immunity seems to vary considerably in those that have gotten infected. Some have have very low levels of protection and there have been cases of documented reinfection with in months of the original infection 

 

Third immunity caused by infection protects less from strains other than the one that caused the original infection. For example someone infected by the original strain does not seen to have gained much protection from b.1.351.

 

Bottom line is while having the illness does generate an immune response a vaccination will be needed to maintain that protection.

Thanks once again for sharing your knowledge in these matters.

 

For everyone who questions getting vaccinated if you have previously had Covid, ask yourself why the 45th President of the United States chose to get his vaccinations after he had recovered.

[voljeep]

21 minutes ago, Jemnibabe said:

And what happens in those ports that do not allow unvaccinated passengers?  That should be interesting.  Sounds to me like RC is chasing the money which is much more important than the health of their passengers.  IF anything goes awry on any of those sailings, it will also reflect poorly on Princess as well as the other cruise lines.  And the cruise lines have only DeSantis to thank for this political stunt.

 

Judy from SW Florida

agreed - nothing should have been done and the cruise lines just waited out the November 1 CDC deadline, right ? 😒

[jwattle]

23 hours ago, SheriffJoe said:

WHAT?? Are you a virologist? The FACTS are now MOST REAL virologists and not just ones who play them on Cruise Critic are saying those who have had covid SHOULD NOT get the vax....

 

13 hours ago, sept10dsm said:

Probably not the only medication either.  I guess the bottom line is they did the short trials on healthy people age 18 to 55.  Those with other illness or recovered or pregnant not included.  The whole thing coming out now about how many medications that help or can help with this disease were not allowed in many states or by many doctors.  I have personal experience with this and a sad day for medicine.  One must remember this is a medication that is only currently approved for emergency use only.  It doesn't prevent or stop the spread.  The recovered while some say they don't know how long the antibodies will last,  well, they surely don't know on a vaccine.  There was a NIH paper published in Jan that was referring to this saying they hoped the vaccine had the same as natural immunity.  I don't want to be a thorn in anyone's side but recovered in any other illness always present the best type of immunity.  There would be many many people coming up with a 'second case' if not.   There seems to be much coming out these past few days on the terrible behind the scenes things that were happening over the past year.  I hope this all straightens out soon and somehow cruising and all travel goes back.  

 

21 minutes ago, sept10dsm said:

More and more the idea that natural immunity through T cells and the antibodies is lasting.  There have been cases that while the antibodies have decreased the T cells hold memory thus will fight off reinfection.  If reinfection was so common there would be actual cases not just talk of it.  There have been doctors coming forward stating that the recovered should not be vaccinated only to be blocked.  I don't know which is better but I do know that with every other illness, recovered do not need a vaccine.  Many medications are not allowed to be used, even back in 2003 with sars hydroxiclorquine was found to help.  So seems the only method was go home, don't do much but wash hands and wait and see.  No other illness has been treated like this.  It's sad because some items did help and doctors in many states were forbidden even to prescribe (offlabel  like may drugs are)  NJ forbad it.  You know all this isn't perfect but no one mentioned any nutrients that may help.  I hope all this is soon figured out now that much is being let out as to what happened the past year.  As, an aside, I recently read that people that survived the 1918 flu, had T cells 80 to 90 yrs later.  So T cells have something positive to say in this illness in my opinion.  

For all of you who believe that having COVID gives you natural immunity from getting it again, and that you shouldn't be vaccinated, there is the very public figure of pro golfer Jon Rahm, who just yesterday was in the lead and after coming off the 18th hole was told by officials he had tested positive... FOR THE SECOND TIME.

So much for natural immunity. The first time was November.

[Catnip]

5 hours ago, jwattle said:

 

 

For all of you who believe that having COVID gives you natural immunity from getting it again, and that you shouldn't be vaccinated, there is the very public figure of pro golfer Jon Rahm, who just yesterday was in the lead and after coming off the 18th hole was told by officials he had tested positive... FOR THE SECOND TIME.

So much for natural immunity. The first time was November.

So what?  Apparently, he made it thru fine when he had it before......he'll most likely make it thru fine again.    Getting covid is not a death sentence for most people. 

[jwattle]

2 minutes ago, Catnip said:

So what?  Apparently, he made it thru fine when he had it before......he'll most likely make it thru fine again.    Getting covid is not a death sentence for most people. 

My point is the claim that having COVID gives you immunity front; that is patently false.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

1 minute ago, jwattle said:

My point is the claim that having COVID gives you immunity front; that is patently false.

Getting covid19 and beating it gives you antibodies as everyone knows. It does not protect you 100%. You should still get the vaccine.

[memoak]

It really doesn’t matter  what people think about vaccinating folks who have had COVID. If they are going to sail with 95% vaccinated then no vaccine no cruise

[4cats4me]

1 hour ago, Catnip said:

So what?  Apparently, he made it thru fine when he had it before......he'll most likely make it thru fine again.    Getting covid is not a death sentence for most people. 

 Agree with you.  The vaccine was never meant to be a cure-all, no more than we can cure the flu or other cold viruses.   Let’s not forget, even the flu  can be deadly for some, yet, nobody seems worried about catching a flu    

 

[memoak]

13 minutes ago, 4cats4me said:

 Agree with you.  The vaccine was never meant to be a cure-all, no more than we can cure the flu or other cold viruses.   Let’s not forget, even the flu  can be deadly for some, yet, nobody seems worried about catching a flu    

 

A half million people in he US don’t die yearly. COVID is much more deadly 

[4cats4me]

6 minutes ago, memoak said:

A half million people in he US don’t die yearly. COVID is much more deadly 

 

And now that a huge percentage of us have been vaccinated, and or had  the virus, then  we shouldn’t be dropping like flies anymore, either, so wouldn’t that put us on par with those who contract a flu, for example? 

Last year we didn’t have immunity, but this year is s different story.  

[memoak]

20 minutes ago, 4cats4me said:

 

And now that a huge percentage of us have been vaccinated, and or had  the virus, then  we shouldn’t be dropping like flies anymore, either, so wouldn’t that put us on par with those who contract a flu, for example? 

Last year we didn’t have immunity, but this year is s different story.  

Those people refusing to vaccinate are still at risk and will continue to do so especially if they continue to get refuse to believe that the virus is real 

[sept10dsm]

3 hours ago, Catnip said:

So what?  Apparently, he made it thru fine when he had it before......he'll most likely make it thru fine again.    Getting covid is not a death sentence for most people. 

These tests are not fool proof.  They have high false positive as well as negative rates.   The inventor of the gold standard PCR stated it was never supposed to be used for diagnosing a disease.  So who really knows.  No getting the illness is not a death or even serious illness for most.  We do have immune systems.