To Vax or not to vax...that is the question

[capriccio]

Carnival Corporation announced the beginning of Alaska cruises on Princess, Carnival and Holland America last week.  Passengers must be fully vaccinated:

 

These Alaska cruises are available for guests who have received their final dose of an approved COVID-19 vaccine at least 14 days prior to the beginning of the cruise and have proof of vaccination. Crew vaccinations will be in accordance with CDC guidelines.

 

Will Carnival have trouble filling their ships?

[Honolulu Blue]

 

7 hours ago, capriccio said:

Carnival Corporation announced the beginning of Alaska cruises on Princess, Carnival and Holland America last week.  Passengers must be fully vaccinated:

 

These Alaska cruises are available for guests who have received their final dose of an approved COVID-19 vaccine at least 14 days prior to the beginning of the cruise and have proof of vaccination. Crew vaccinations will be in accordance with CDC guidelines.

 

Will Carnival have trouble filling their ships?

 

I don't have a strong opinion either way, but it will be fascinating to see - especially across brands.  We'll see.

[K32682]

10 hours ago, mom says said:

Shocked? You're kidding, right? Let's just leave it at  these lines appeal to different demographics.

There was an interesting article in today's  Toronto Star that looked at the demographic characteristics of pro vaxx/mask/mitigation restrictions Canadians vs the anti/denier Canadians. I'm going to assume a survey like this in the US would be similar. I'd say these would align fairly well with the what the OP found.

Exactly right. My exposure to and observations of anti-vaxx/-mask/-lockdown types leads to the inexorable conclusion that they are opinionated and bellicose imbeciles. No one wants to cruise with stupid and argumentative. 

[navybankerteacher]

17 minutes ago, K32682 said:

Exactly right. My exposure to and observations of anti-vaxx/-mask/-lockdown types leads to the inexorable conclusion that they are opinionated and bellicose imbeciles. No one wants to cruise with stupid and argumentative. 

But there may be enough of them to fill a few ships.

[TNcruising02]

I think Carnival attracts younger cruisers, who are more likely to be at very low risk for complications from covid and who have young children who aren't eligible for the vaccine.  It makes sense that people who are very low risk would not vaccinate at the same rate as the older, high risk crowd who may die from covid.

The younger cruisers who plan to have children someday or have more children may want to wait to make sure the vaccines won't affect their bodies in some way.  There are many reasons that younger people may choose not to vaccinate.

Edited May 24, 2021 by TNcruising02

[evandbob]

Several news outlets reported today that educational differences are one of the major factors in vaccine acceptance or rejection.

 

https://news.usc.edu/182848/education-covid-19-vaccine-safety-risks-usc-study/

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30239-X/fulltext

 

Of course, other factors such as income, age, political leanings, gender and neighborhood have influence, but education levels seem to be the most effective determinant. The more education one has, the more likely they have gotten vaccinated.

 

As for Celebrity vs. Carnival, anecdotally I've met more cruisers with a masters' degree on Celebrity than on Carnival.

 

 

[evandbob]

Several news outlets reported today that educational differences are one of the major factors in vaccine acceptance or rejection.

 

https://news.usc.edu/182848/education-covid-19-vaccine-safety-risks-usc-study/

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30239-X/fulltext

 

Of course, other factors such as income, age, political leanings, gender and neighborhood have influence, but education levels seem to be the most effective determinant. The more education one has, the more likely they have gotten vaccinated.

 

As for Celebrity vs. Carnival, anecdotally I've met more cruisers with a masters' degree on Celebrity than on Carnival.

 

 

[wowzz]

30 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

There are many reasons that younger people may choose not to vaccinate.

There are absolutely no reasons whatsoever why young people should not be vaccinated.

[TNcruising02]

2 minutes ago, wowzz said:

There are absolutely no reasons whatsoever why young people should not be vaccinated.

Except that there are articles now stating the vaccine could cause heart problems and problems with a female's menstrual cycle.  My husband and I are vaccinated, so we are not anti-vax.  However, if we were younger we may have taken other factors into account.  For someone to state there are no reasons WHATSOEVER for people to not get vaccinated just shows the very narrow view you have.  It sounds like you believe that everyone should only think the way you think.

Edited May 24, 2021 by TNcruising02

[wowzz]

6 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Except that there are articles now stating the vaccine could cause heart problems and problems with a female's menstrual cycle.  My husband and I are vaccinated, so we are not anti-vax.  However, if we were younger we may have taken other factors into account.  For someone to state there are no reasons WHATSOEVER for people to not get vaccinated just shows the very narrow view you have.  It sounds like you believe that everyone should only think the way you think.

I am merely repeating the facts - not my fault if you don't like them. If you can supply evidence showing that you are more likely to die from a Covid vaccination than from Covid itself, I will change my point of view,  but no such evidence exists. 

 BBC News - Covid vaccine: Period changes could be a short-term side effect
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56901353

[TNcruising02]

Just now, wowzz said:

I am merely repeating the facts - not my fault if you don't like them. If you can supply evidence showing that you are more likely to die from a Covid vaccination than from Covid itself, I will change my point of view,  but no such evidence exists. 

 BBC News - Covid vaccine: Period changes could be a short-term side effect
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56901353

 

I never said a person was more likely to die from the vaccine.  Quote me if I did.  I said that some people may have legitimate reasons to wait on getting vaccinated.  You said there are no reasons WHATSOEVER. That is your opinion and a very narrow view.  Just because you believe something doesn't mean anyone who doesn't is wrong.

[wowzz]

6 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

 

I never said a person was more likely to die from the vaccine.  Quote me if I did.  I said that some people may have legitimate reasons to wait on getting vaccinated.  You said there are no reasons WHATSOEVER. That is your opinion and a very narrow view.  Just because you believe something doesn't mean anyone who doesn't is wrong.

OK, so what valid reasons are there not to be vaccinated?

And by valid, I mean scientifically proven reasons.

[TNcruising02]

3 minutes ago, wowzz said:

OK, so what valid reasons are there not to be vaccinated?

And by valid, I mean scientifically proven reasons.

Possible heart problems in young people and menstrual issues with females.  Just because those issues don't matter to you doesn't mean they don't matter to other people. Since the odds of anyone dying of covid under the age of 45 are very, very slim and have a smaller chance the younger the person, then those people are weighing the risks of the vaccine.  It's not rocket science to understand that people have concerns. Some people have a very narrow view of life and think that everyone should think the way they think and believe what they believe or they are wrong.  Give me a break.

https://www.kctv5.com/coronavirus/vaccine_tracker/heart-issue-warning-in-kids-after-covid-vaccination/video_3c6c7a5d-d1a6-5747-940a-5f9c3ca5f4ff.html

Edited May 24, 2021 by TNcruising02

[wowzz]

Nope, still not good enough reasons not to be vaccinated. 

I'll stick with the view of the experts - with luck virtually every adult in the UK will have been vaccinated in the next couple of months,  with all the scientists agreeing that there is no proven evidence to show any harmful effects.

[ilikeanswers]

19 hours ago, ldubs said:

I understand.  My concerns are things like a botched itinerary or shipboard restrictions because unvaccinated folk come down with the virus.  Hence, my preference for the vaccine requirement until such a time as the pandemic is managed.

 

From what I understand Celebrity cruises tend to be more expensive than Carnival so perhaps that is a factor in Celebrity passengers wanting vaccinated cruises. If you are paying more for a cruise you probably want the line to decrease the chance of things going wrong as much as possible.

[ldubs]

18 hours ago, sanger727 said:

it’s also probably a relevant factor that I have no intention of being one of the first to cruise. I have a 2021 vacation planned. My next cruise is probably going to be Alaska, which I would consider for 2022, but not until I see cruising restart and being successful. So do I need to see cruises being fully vaccinated at first. Not really. Probably would be a good idea, but since I won’t be on them so it’s not my dice that’s being rolled. 

 

We are taking the same look before leaping approach.  We have a cruise booked for August '22.  Had a brief discussion with Mrs Ldubs about later this year, but who knows.  At the risk of being overly optimistic, I won't be surprised if the return towards normalcy starts to pick up speed.  The one thing we can all agree on is the sooner that safely happens the better.   

[ldubs]

34 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

From what I understand Celebrity cruises tend to be more expensive than Carnival so perhaps that is a factor in Celebrity passengers wanting vaccinated cruises. If you are paying more for a cruise you probably want the line to decrease the chance of things going wrong as much as possible.

 

Perhaps, but my guess is the this isn't really driven by the difference in cost.   I think it is probably about there being more youthful cruisers on Carnival, including families.   Just a wild guess of course.   

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

I think Carnival attracts younger cruisers, who are more likely to be at very low risk for complications from covid and who have young children who aren't eligible for the vaccine.  It makes sense that people who are very low risk would not vaccinate at the same rate as the older, high risk crowd who may die from covid.

The younger cruisers who plan to have children someday or have more children may want to wait to make sure the vaccines won't affect their bodies in some way.  There are many reasons that younger people may choose not to vaccinate.

 

I think we are assuming everyone who voted "Yes" in this poll is an anti-vaxxer.  I suspect there are a lot of fully vaccinated folk who voted "Yes".   

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

Since the odds of anyone dying of covid under the age of 45 are very, very slim and have a smaller chance the younger the person, then those people are weighing the risks of the vaccine.

 

One doesn't have to die from COVID to suffer lasting ill effects of the infection. COVID "long haulers" (now more properly called patients with “post-acute sequelae of COVID-19”) tend to be in the category you reference, from teenagers to those in their 50s. Often their COVID symptoms were not very severe, but they have lasting impairments in lung function, heart problems and even cognitive issues.

 

I would certainly want to take that into consideration if I were in that age range and considering vaccination. Here is a good interview with a Harvard researcher who talks about the "severe symptoms that are really out of proportion to the initial symptoms" of this group of people:

 

Harvard Medical School expert explains ‘long COVID’ – Harvard Gazette

 

 

I would also caution against jumping to conclusions regarding whether the vaccine is really associated with, for example, temporary menstrual issues. All kinds of anecdotal reports are collected whenever a new vaccine is distributed, but whether or not there is a causal link has yet to be determined. 

 

 

[TNcruising02]

21 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

One doesn't have to die from COVID to suffer lasting ill effects of the infection. COVID "long haulers" (now more properly called patients with “post-acute sequelae of COVID-19”) tend to be in the category you reference, from teenagers to those in their 50s. Often their COVID symptoms were not very severe, but they have lasting impairments in lung function, heart problems and even cognitive issues.

 

I would certainly want to take that into consideration if I were in that age range and considering vaccination. Here is a good interview with a Harvard researcher who talks about the "severe symptoms that are really out of proportion to the initial symptoms" of this group of people:

 

Harvard Medical School expert explains ‘long COVID’ – Harvard Gazette

 

 

I would also caution against jumping to conclusions regarding whether the vaccine is really associated with, for example, temporary menstrual issues. All kinds of anecdotal reports are collected whenever a new vaccine is distributed, but whether or not there is a causal link has yet to be determined. 

 

 

I agree that there should be caution, hence why some people are waiting to get the vaccination.  I am fully vaccinated, but can respect those who want to proceed with caution.

[Roger88]

21 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

I agree that there should be caution, hence why some people are waiting to get the vaccination.  I am fully vaccinated, but can respect those who want to proceed with caution.

Vaccination does not give you a 100% guarantee. Moreover, in a year or two you will lose your immunity to the virus and the virus itself will mutate... I cant really say whether it was a good idea to be vaccinated right now 

[TheOldBear]

24 minutes ago, Roger88 said:

Vaccination does not give you a 100% guarantee. Moreover, in a year or two you will lose your immunity to the virus and the virus itself will mutate... I cant really say whether it was a good idea to be vaccinated right now 

Antibodies fade after a few months - they are part of the immune system's short term response.

The long term response is cellular - the 'T' and 'memory B' cells, lasting for years to decades.

For example, SARS-COV-1 [the original SARS] survivors demonstrate cellular reactivity to the SARS-COV-2 [COVID-19] virus, 18 years after recovering from SARS. [do a search on 'sars cross reactivity' and look for results from the NIH.GOV site]

[navybankerteacher]

5 hours ago, wowzz said:

OK, so what valid reasons are there not to be vaccinated?

And by valid, I mean scientifically proven reasons.

Oh, please!   Don’t ask these people for reasons to not be vaccinated - they will always be able to come up with all sorts of blather - perhaps even meeting your test by misquoting some “scientific” treatise they probably misunderstood in the first place.

[cruisemom42]

 

Apologies for the several duplicate posts. The system was not cooperating!

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by cruisemom42

[cruisemom42]

 

Sorry -- duplicate post.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by cruisemom42