HAL continuing to downgrade its product

[Florida_gal_50]

3 hours ago, idiebabe said:

Why would I like it has nothing to do with supporting the Line?  Ridiculous comment!  🙄 Whether I think it's right or not that they have these Upcharge items will not change the fact that they are doing it.   The new options, IMO, are better because it gives people a reasonably priced choice of a dinner they may enjoy without going to a Specialty Restaurant especially since the Menu does keep declining!

 

Maybe it's you who needs to have them add on to your Cruise Fare thousands more so you can go to Pinnacle for Dinner again since they implemented the $7 charge for the 2nd App!  Maybe they'll take it off just for you!  🤣

 

We don't like the $7 charge and told them that but we're not going to act childish about it and stop going to Pinnacle when we enjoy it.

 

@Hlitner  In all my Years cruising HAL I've never been charged for a cup of Tea in the DR or any Specialty Restaurant.  I know that was a big issue all over Social Media with Carnival Cruise Lines.  Are you confusing HAL with Carnival?  Also,  I don't think comparing Seabourn to HAL is Apples to Apples when it comes to pricing.  Correct me if I'm wrong! 

You really need to go back to my post and read it. Nothing in your post makes sense.  You said you like the upcharge then say others are confused.  

Edited November 14, 2022 by Florida_gal_50

[Hlitner]

4 hours ago, idiebabe said:

Why would I like it has nothing to do with supporting the Line?  Ridiculous comment!  🙄 Whether I think it's right or not that they have these Upcharge items will not change the fact that they are doing it.   The new options, IMO, are better because it gives people a reasonably priced choice of a dinner they may enjoy without going to a Specialty Restaurant especially since the Menu does keep declining!

 

Maybe it's you who needs to have them add on to your Cruise Fare thousands more so you can go to Pinnacle for Dinner again since they implemented the $7 charge for the 2nd App!  Maybe they'll take it off just for you!  🤣

 

We don't like the $7 charge and told them that but we're not going to act childish about it and stop going to Pinnacle when we enjoy it.

 

@Hlitner  In all my Years cruising HAL I've never been charged for a cup of Tea in the DR or any Specialty Restaurant.  I know that was a big issue all over Social Media with Carnival Cruise Lines.  Are you confusing HAL with Carnival?  Also,  I don't think comparing Seabourn to HAL is Apples to Apples when it comes to pricing.  Correct me if I'm wrong! 

Tis a slippery slope once you accept add-ons.  First it starts with reasonable things like caviar or perhaps a 32 ounce steak (they don't have that in the PG).  Then it becomes an add on for a lousy warm water lobster tail.  Moves on to an extra main   than a fee for an extra starter.  Soon, they might charge a fee to use a tender, the salad bar in the Lido, all room service, or reserved seats at the shows.  And so it goes.  Unfortunately, management pushes these things, a little at a time, waiting for a reaction.  When Princess tried add-ons in their MDR (primarily steaks) there was a mild uproar and those add-ons disappeared.  But on HAL, since we have the usual folks saying "HAL is Perfect," and folks saying, "we don't care about no Production shows since we go to bed by 7,"  etc. etc. the slope quickly increases to near vertically downhill.

 

Hank

[PACD_JG]

2 hours ago, dwc13 said:

 

In fairness, not everyone is able to relocate to another area even if financial means are not the primary obstacle. 

 

Obviously...but my point is...don't continually bemoan the weather.  

 

2 hours ago, dwc13 said:

 

If you live in Florida, the threat from hurricane damage is very real, even if the probability of sustaining major loss is quite low. It's a part of life and you accept it and go about your business.

 

 

 

As you just said...you either accept it as a part of life...or you move.  But making dozens of whoa is me statements about how bad hurricanes impact you is an awful coping mechanism.

[Florida_gal_50]

23 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Tis a slippery slope once you accept add-ons.  First it starts with reasonable things like caviar or perhaps a 32 ounce steak (they don't have that in the PG).  Then it becomes an add on for a lousy warm water lobster tail.  Moves on to an extra main   than a fee for an extra starter.  Soon, they might charge a fee to use a tender, the salad bar in the Lido, all room service, or reserved seats at the shows.  And so it goes.  Unfortunately, management pushes these things, a little at a time, waiting for a reaction.  When Princess tried add-ons in their MDR (primarily steaks) there was a mild uproar and those add-ons disappeared.  But on HAL, since we have the usual folks saying "HAL is Perfect," and folks saying, "we don't care about no Production shows since we go to bed by 7,"  etc. etc. the slope quickly increases to near vertically downhill.

 

Hank

Don't you know Hank we are "lucky" hal survived the pandemic. Some are happy to bend over as much as hal asks.  There have been 2 recent reviews from New hal cruisers, neither was impressed.  What they don't seem to get is that hal needs to attract new cruisers into the fold or die.  They can cheerlead as much as they want.  If they don't keep up to the other cruise lines they will die.  No amount of belittling or put downs will change that.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Florida_gal_50

[dwc13]

3 hours ago, cbr663 said:

 

Exactly.  Over the years HAL has turned the PG from a profit centre into a cost centre as most of the passengers dining there are not paying the extra supplement to do so. As a cost centre the PG will face the same pressures as any other cost centre to reduce those costs wherever possible.

 

I still have occasional flashbacks from multiple discussions I had over the years with internal groups about cost allocations and their underlying assumptions & projections. I wanted to understand why our cost structure on certain products was (apparently) higher than the competition's. They were at a price point our standard product cost models weren't able to support. Long story short, things could look materially different by changing some of the underlying assumptions & projections and hence their corresponding allocated costs. The pandemic has certainly turned things upside down and then some. As things continue to rebound throughout the world and return more in line with recent pre-pandemic levels/trends, hopefully this will allow for more 'familiar' assumptions & projections to be used when allocating costs. 

 

CCL is saddled with large amounts of debt, so it needs to continuously find ways to raise revenues and cut/control costs to help ensure cash flow is sufficient to cover ongoing debt service obligations in a timely manner. Debt service expense skyrocketed during the pandemic years while revenues (understandably) dropped dramatically. Tough combination. If the company defaults on a debt obligation, its shareholders (including C-Suiters who might have large stock holdings/option grants) could face the prospect of being wiped out. CCL can only cut costs so far, so implementing new/higher charges is not entirely unexpected. Whether these new charges/cost reductions are successful for CCL (overall, not HAL specifically) and are kept in place over the long term remains to be seen.

[RuthC]

7 hours ago, AncientWanderer said:

Of course, I'm comparing HAL to other mid-tier cruise lines.  Not sure it's really fair to compare them to Seabourn.

It isn't. Nor is it fair to compare HAL to the increased cost areas of a 'ship within a ship'. 

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, dwc13 said:

CCL can only cut costs so far, so implementing new/higher charges is not entirely unexpected. Whether these new charges/cost reductions are successful for CCL (overall, not HAL specifically) and are kept in place over the long term remains to be seen.

 

Great points. Traditionally, though, cruise lines have been more successful in introducing some new service or concept that was not previously available (and free). People are more willing to accept something new -- and presumably with some value -- as opposed to having to pay for something that was "included with the fare" in the past.

 

This is a time when CCL needs to look for some truly visionary leaders who can come up with a new concept or concepts that will be popular and profitable. (Such as the additiona of specialty coffee areas was a few years ago...). 

 

By adding a charge for ordering more than one "starter" item, I wonder if HAL has calculated the number of PG diners who may decide not to dine there at all -- in which case their "+7" becomes a "-40" (or however much their cover is these days).

 

[oaktreerb]

22 hours ago, iflyrc5 said:

We are currently on the NA and I can have all the toast, salt/pepper and butter that I want.  No worries.

Actually, butter seems to be a rationed item on some ships.   I have learned to specifically ask for the butter….even in Club Orange.  In the Lido the butter was not in the same section as the rolls…..had to go to a different serving station recently.  

[GateGuardian]

....have a cruise coming up (first HAL since the restart) and this is so disappointing to read....

[BetsyS.]

I was on the Niew Statendam in August. I got butter in the Lido, but I had to ask

for it every time. In the MDR, butter was on the table.

[The-Inside-Cabin]

I just finished my first cruise on Royal Caribbean.   In the MDR they offer a shrimp cocktail and escargot for no extra charge every day.    On the other hand they charge a $9.38 delivery fee for any room service delivery .   They have a robot bartender, that doesn't get an 18% gratuity, but does demand a 18% service charge.  Their burger place, Johnny Rockets, is a specialty restaurant where 2 burgers and fries will set you back $30.   

 

The RCI pinnacle grille - aka Chops - charges $65 but you get unlimited appetizers.   RCI has a very nice cruise product - lots of pros and cons....but very nice overall.   

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by The-Inside-Cabin

[dwc13]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Great points. Traditionally, though, cruise lines have been more successful in introducing some new service or concept that was not previously available (and free). People are more willing to accept something new -- and presumably with some value -- as opposed to having to pay for something that was "included with the fare" in the past.

 

This is a time when CCL needs to look for some truly visionary leaders who can come up with a new concept or concepts that will be popular and profitable. (Such as the additiona of specialty coffee areas was a few years ago...). 

 

By adding a charge for ordering more than one "starter" item, I wonder if HAL has calculated the number of PG diners who may decide not to dine there at all -- in which case their "+7" becomes a "-40" (or however much their cover is these days).

 

 

I don't closely follow CCL or the cruise industry, so grain of salt here. Perhaps big grains, lol.

 

Clearly something has to give, as the parent company's cost structure has increased in recent years, driven in large part by financing of bigger ships. No doubt the powers that be at CCL have demographics and research/data/projections about price elasticities of its customer base and have run various scenarios through financial models. Alas, the accuracy of underlying assumptions and projections used to support model inputs can only be determined at a later date and sometimes they're way off.

 

Part of the challenge of introducing new services/concepts is often that requires down time (drydock) to implement. Installing wired and/or Wi-Fi connections, TVs and media servers to allow for in room video-on-demand/PPV is one such an example. Perhaps CCL can offer annual fee-paying customers the exclusive opportunity to book a specific room on a ship during the 1st few days after the cruise is announced. Might come in handy on ships/cruises that are extremely popular. Have a tier-based fee structure, for example $100 gets 2 opportunities, $200 gets 5 opportunities, etc. Once they're used, they're gone if the customer ends up canceling. Unused opportunities would expire after the end of the year. Just a thought.

 

At this point the biggest challenge facing CCL right now is getting their regular customers back to pre-pandemic levels of cruising with the company. At a minimum, that requires having all of their ships fully staffed and back to sailing popular and familiar itineraries. Per the 2021 Annual Report, that was expected to happen in 2023, as long as there were no additional setbacks from things beyond CCL's control. The company was operating at 67% capacity in early January 2022. I don't know where CCL stands in that regard as of today, but it is probably higher. Updated information should be in the 2022 Annual Report when it becomes available 1Q23.

 

 

[AncientWanderer]

15 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Great points. Traditionally, though, cruise lines have been more successful in introducing some new service or concept that was not previously available (and free). People are more willing to accept something new -- and presumably with some value -- as opposed to having to pay for something that was "included with the fare" in the past.

 

This is a time when CCL needs to look for some truly visionary leaders who can come up with a new concept or concepts that will be popular and profitable. (Such as the additiona of specialty coffee areas was a few years ago...). 

 

By adding a charge for ordering more than one "starter" item, I wonder if HAL has calculated the number of PG diners who may decide not to dine there at all -- in which case their "+7" becomes a "-40" (or however much their cover is these days).

 

 

The Music Walk is a new concept and it's very popular -- always quite busy and bringing new cruisers to HAL.

[RD64]

1 hour ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

The Music Walk is a new concept and it's very popular -- always quite busy and bringing new cruisers to HAL.

It may be attracting new cruisers, but at what price point? And are these cruisers the type to spend additional $$$ once on board?

[daisy-mae]

1 hour ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

The Music Walk is a new concept and it's very popular -- always quite busy and bringing new cruisers to HAL.

Another plus is the addition of pickleball.

[Sea42]

32 minutes ago, RD64 said:

It may be attracting new cruisers, but at what price point? And are these cruisers the type to spend additional $$$ once on board?

I would think there are music lovers that spend additional money once onboard. Curious why you think they wouldn't.

[albingirl]

15 hours ago, GateGuardian said:

....have a cruise coming up (first HAL since the restart) and this is so disappointing 

 

 

15 hours ago, GateGuardian said:

....have a cruise coming up (first HAL since the restart) and this is so disappointing to read....

Don't let them bring you down. Go forward and enjoy. 

[oldbluff]

Just now, albingirl said:

 

 

Don't let them bring you down. Go forward and enjoy. 

Speaking of music, that could be a Neil Young song. Oh, it is. 🤓

 

Looking forward to being on the water. 

[LocoLoco1]

HAL ships beached themselves in ‘Nowheresville’? I think so.. Too big and old to be future Boutique 6-stars. Too small and old for Waterslides and BumperCars. I cruise a LOT.. and Post-Covid the Big 3 seemingly don’t know WHAT to do with all these dam* 4-door sedan ships set up for Senior citizens on a 3-star budget except to $Up-charge$ for stuff and substitute peanuts for Cashews once they’re aboard. So what else are they doing about their dilemma?Building Mega-ships. Some boutique ships may soon be floated too, but Corporate Annual & Q3 Reports are really trumpeting the ‘Cost Efficiencies’ of the big ones they have on order. Glad I sailed on the PRINSENDAM when I did…

[aliaschief]

28 minutes ago, LocoLoco1 said:

Glad I sailed on the PRINSENDAM when I did…

I’m still sailing on boutique Prisendam but it’s now called Azamara Line. Love it! 

[dwc13]

17 hours ago, GateGuardian said:

....have a cruise coming up (first HAL since the restart) and this is so disappointing to read....

 

I enjoyed our recent cruise aboard Zaandam more than one we took in 2019 aboard Maasdam. 

 

Have a great time on your cruise. 

[dwc13]

2 hours ago, daisy-mae said:

Another plus is the addition of pickleball.

 

I played pickleball for the first time last month aboard Zaandam. Met some good people while playing.

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, Sea42 said:

I would think there are music lovers that spend additional money once onboard. Curious why you think they wouldn't.

 

I think it's more a question of direct monetization. It's difficult to prove that music lovers spend additional money, plus there may be some (we hear from them frequently on the board) that like the Music Walk but find it a bit repetitive as the main entertainment focus -- so at best it's a Win-Lose, not a Win-Win.

 

Direct monetization would be if HAL could somehow get folks to buy tee-shirts (like at a real concert, remember those?) or sell downloads of the music and get a small chunk of the profits....

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, daisy-mae said:

Another plus is the addition of pickleball.

 

I don't even know what that is!  How is it going to increase profits on the ships?

 

[Mary229]

5 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I don't even know what that is!  How is it going to increase profits on the ships?

 

I sailed on a “premium” river line this year and had to hear about how delighted they were to present Corn Hole.  That doesn’t even sound nice much less something to brag about