Red Sea troubles

[OlsSalt]

3 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

  I don't see the Silver Moon on that tracker, however.  When I did a search for that ship, the message was "No such ship", or words to that effect.  

 

Silverseas Moon? 

[cruisemom42]

7 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

  I don't see the Silver Moon on that tracker, however.  When I did a search for that ship, the message was "No such ship", or words to that effect.  

 

[HappyInVan]

Silversea's Silver Moon is a newish ship. Just 40k GT and 600 pax. Hope that they slip under the radar. Good luck to them. 👍

Edited January 1 by HappyInVan

[Heidi13]

18 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

What about the petrol and diesel cargo in tankers?

 

As for Egypt, it is not a friend of Iran/Russia. A threat to the Suez might persuade the Egyptians to be friendlier to the Palestinians.

 

Closure of the Suez and the Red Sea (Saudi oil exports) would cripple the world economy. Making Russian fossil fuel more attractive and profitable. There are many opportunities in the end game for Iran, China, Russia and North Korea. The question is how close to the brink they (and the west) are willing to skate?

 

 

Product tankers and chemical tankers must provide and maintain an inert gas blanket in the void space of all cargo tanks. On the tanker I worked aboard regular cargoes were provided an exhaust gas inerting, while the super nasty stuff got nitrogen, with lots of nitrogen bottles loaded before departure.

 

The inert gas is topped up daily.

 

Suez was closed for 6 years from 1967 to 1975, so all shipping had to use the Cape route. I did my first transit in 1976 and the single channel was much smaller and shallower than it is today, so the VLCC's of the 1970's couldn't use the canal. Even today, Suez is limited to Suezmax size tankers, which from memory are < 200,000 tons, with max draft of 65 - 70'.

 

Therefore, when loaded, most VLCC/ULCC can't use Suez, even when it is open, so must route around the Cape. Back in the 70's & 80's, everyone that I knew that worked for P&O Bulk and other tanker companies, all used the Cape route and I suspect a significant portion of European destined oil still uses that route today.

[Heidi13]

16 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Yes, but would it still be inert after an antiship missile hits it?

 

 

https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/12/18/bp-pauses-oil-cargo-on-red-sea-as-missile-attacks-affect-global-trade

 

 

Based on the above photo, it appears the hull has breached with cargo leaking out. However, all other tanks appear intact and the inert gas system is working, restricting fire to the impact area.

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, Dutchman48 said:

For what it is worth, Silver Seas Silver Moon is going south bound in the Canal today. So, I assume that someone at RCL's HQ feels the risk for cruise ships is within their tolerance limits.

 

Cruise Ship Tracker, Itineraries, Schedules, Deck Plans - CruiseMapper

 

Or, the ship was already in the Eastern Meddy and to maintain the future schedules they had no option but to continue through Suez and the Red Sea.

 

Remember most shipping line/cruise lines operate with Safety is our # 1 Priority. Then in small print, provided it doesn't cost money.

[OlsSalt]

My first full Suez transit was in early 1977 (RTW Galileo Galilei) - the banks were still littered with destroyed military equipment.

 

Twice entering this  area from the south on passenger ships, we picked up onboard security personnel, barbed wire, acoustic and water devices were installed, blackouts strictly enforced, and portholes in the cabins were screwed tightly shut. We had to make the run across the Indian Ocean to the horn of Africa leading into the Red Sea. Small votive candles only on the tables, to light the aft recreation deck if we wanted to be outdoors at night.

 

Somali pirates were out in those days. We did emergency drills on board - go to a central area of the ship - away from any possible munitions piercing the ship sides. With gallows humor, we did laugh a bit, thinking what would the pirates want with a ship full of complaining old people, who were probably not even worth ransom demands made on relatives back home.

 

We passed with no incidents, nor even sightings. But it was a time to be tense, dutiful and alert. Yes, this was "vacation" travel.

[chengkp75]

31 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Based on the above photo, it appears the hull has breached with cargo leaking out. However, all other tanks appear intact and the inert gas system is working, restricting fire to the impact area.

Yep, considering the only thing separating that fire from the rest of the crude oil cargo is 3/4" plate steel (a real good thermal conductor), yes, the IG is doing it's job very well, limiting fire to leakage from the breached tank.  The fact that the deck above that tank has not burned through also shows that the IG blanket is being maintained in that tank as well, and only the oil that has leaked out is burning.

 

The first thing the engineers would do if a cargo tank is breached, whether by act of war or accident, is to fire up the IG generator and start topping up the IG, since losing cargo out the tank means more atmosphere volume is created, and you want to keep that inerted.

[ski ww]

Read in the paper today the US Navy took out four small boats attacking a container ship. Those guys aren't that smart if they start shooting at US Navy helicopters.

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, ski ww said:

Read in the paper today the US Navy took out four small boats attacking a container ship. Those guys aren't that smart if they start shooting at US Navy helicopters.

Depends on what they are shooting with.  A US Stinger or Russian Grail missile are great equalizers.

[sansterre]

9 hours ago, Dutchman48 said:

For what it is worth, Silver Seas Silver Moon is going south bound in the Canal today. So, I assume that someone at RCL's HQ feels the risk for cruise ships is within their tolerance limits.

 

Cruise Ship Tracker, Itineraries, Schedules, Deck Plans - CruiseMapper

The Silver Moon appears to be at Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.  Was Jeddah on their original itinerary?

I see the ship is to end in Aqaba on January 6 - a one way Athens to Aqaba

[HappyInVan]

9 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Based on the above photo, it appears the hull has breached with cargo leaking out. However, all other tanks appear intact and the inert gas system is working, restricting fire to the impact area.

 

The video of the burning tanker was the Kokuka Courageous in 2019 in the Gulf of Oman.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2019_Gulf_of_Oman_incident

 

The damage was done by a single limpet mine. By its nature, the amount of HE in a limpet mine is limited since it has to be handled by a swimmer.

 

Few civilians appreciate the effectiveness of specialty munitions. A single limpet mine was enough to force an evacuation of the 27,000 dwt chemical tanker, and the ship had to be repaired.

 

 

[Blackduck59]

So we are using images that are 4 years old, of a ship on fire to back up the argument that the rebels in the area are using sophisticated weapons and are controlled by some tactical geniuses far more intelligent than the naval commanders they are up against. It turns out the damage was from one of the least sophisticated anti ship munitions known to man, a limpet mine. 

[Bill B]

We won't know the truth of what's happening for at least 20 years when those involved can speak freely.

 

The main concern of those involved is: 'Can I get elected again?' or, 'Will there be a revolution and I be deposed?'

 

"Your safety is our first concern". 🤣

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

The video of the burning tanker was the Kokuka Courageous in 2019 in the Gulf of Oman.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2019_Gulf_of_Oman_incident

 

The damage was done by a single limpet mine. By its nature, the amount of HE in a limpet mine is limited since it has to be handled by a swimmer.

 

Few civilians appreciate the effectiveness of specialty munitions. A single limpet mine was enough to force an evacuation of the 27,000 dwt chemical tanker, and the ship had to be repaired.

 

 

Actually, the video is of the Front Altair on fire.  Both the Front Altair and the Kokuka Courageous were attacked at the same time with limpet mines, and both caught fire, but only the Altair had damage to her cargo tanks.  The  Altair is a 109,000 dwt crude oil tanker.  Both tankers had crews of about 23.  The limpet mines used weighed 42 kg (90 lbs).  According to US military video, Iranian vessels were seen near the two tankers, and the two limpet mines on the Courageous, only one of which detonated, were attached a few meters above the waterline, so were not delivered by swimmers.

[HappyInVan]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, the video is of the Front Altair on fire.  Both the Front Altair and the Kokuka Courageous were attacked at the same time with limpet mines, and both caught fire, but only the Altair had damage to her cargo tanks.  The  Altair is a 109,000 dwt crude oil tanker.  Both tankers had crews of about 23.  The limpet mines used weighed 42 kg (90 lbs).  According to US military video, 

 

Yes. I've seen the grainy video of the night-time retrieval of the mine. I presume that both ships were holed since as you said both ships caught fire. Therefore, both ships were damaged, and needed repairs in a drydock.

 

"After the incident, Kokuka Courageous was towed to the port of Kalba in the United Arab Emirates. Dutch firm Boskalis was appointed to salvage both Kokuka Courageous and Front Altair.[49]"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2019_Gulf_of_Oman_incident#Aftermath

 

Interesting, the inert gas system didn't work in these cases to prevent the fire. What could the crew do to put out the fire? Was that why they abandoned ship?

 

My point was that a small amount of HE could do a lot of damage if aimed at the right spot. IMO, the current Houthi/Iranian operation in the Red Sea is just harassment since no ship has been seriously damaged.

 

Certainly, a warhead with 10x the HE would do a lot of damage to a cruise ship and its pax. Not the same as targeting a stack of containers full of TV sets.

 

 

Edited January 2 by HappyInVan

[chengkp75]

18 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Interesting, the inert gas system didn't work in these cases to prevent the fire. What could the crew do to put out the fire? Was that why they abandoned ship?

The Courageous was holed in the engine room spaces, no inert gas there, for obvious reasons.  Fire in the engineering spaces on a ship can frequently lead to total loss of power, and hence eliminate the ability to fight a fire.  Not sure what suppression systems the ship had, or what was deployed, but that is likely why they abandoned ship.  The Altair, again, shows that the inert gas system was working, as I noted above, keeping the fire from spreading to other tanks, and also keeping the fire limited to the area of the side of the tank where oil was leaking out from, and not on the top of the oil in the tank.  Again, not certain of what measures were employed, or whether they abandoned ship or were advised to do so by the Navy.

 

The Courageous would have had CO2 smothering in the engine room, and that would have extinguished the fire, but it would also have resulted in complete loss of power (engines don't run on CO2).  The Altair had firefighting foam that could have been sprayed to run down the side of the ship, but again, don't know whether they used this until exhausted or not.

[Wh2437]

The 2020 and 2025 GWC from Singapore West clearly show the alternative if the route through Suez is considered untenable in April. We board in Singapore on the final 49 day segment on 23 March. A decision must be made a month or so prior to Singapore and it will depend upon the war.  We love an adventure and are excited about either the Suez transit or deviating south with visits to Mombassa, Mozambique, Zanzibar, Durban, Cape Town etc.   Speculation about a cancellation is wrongheaded. There are many great ports to visit going south and ports visited will be about the same number as they would have been on the Med cruise. I cant speak to additional cost for HAL, but it should not be a game changer. They do the southern route around the Cape during the same month pretty much every other year. I am certain HAL will try to maintain the current itinerary, but passenger safety always comes first and they will do whatever is necessary when the time comes for a decision. Whatever that decision is we look forward to a fun cruise no matter which route we take. 

[ski ww]

Look at it as a glass half full. The route up the west coast of Africa is also very interesting. It will sure be something to talk about at the end of the cruise which ever itinerary they use. Enjoy the cruise.

[rafinmd]

4 hours ago, Wh2437 said:

The 2020 and 2025 GWC from Singapore West clearly show the alternative if the route through Suez is considered untenable in April. We board in Singapore on the final 49 day segment on 23 March. A decision must be made a month or so prior to Singapore and it will depend upon the war.  We love an adventure and are excited about either the Suez transit or deviating south with visits to Mombassa, Mozambique, Zanzibar, Durban, Cape Town etc.   Speculation about a cancellation is wrongheaded. There are many great ports to visit going south and ports visited will be about the same number as they would have been on the Med cruise. I cant speak to additional cost for HAL, but it should not be a game changer. They do the southern route around the Cape during the same month pretty much every other year. I am certain HAL will try to maintain the current itinerary, but passenger safety always comes first and they will do whatever is necessary when the time comes for a decision. Whatever that decision is we look forward to a fun cruise no matter which route we take. 

Welcome to Cruise Critic.  You absolutely have the right attitude.

 

Roy

[ChinaShrek]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:44 PM, HappyInVan said:

 

 

BTW, back on topic. No, I wouldn't sail in a cruise ship into a war zone.

Then the terrorists win! We must all do our part to have a free world. During World War One people sailed the Lusitania knowing there was a chance they it could be attacked. The cruise ship was attacked and sank to the bottom of the sea BUT it helped bring about American entry into the war. 

[cruisemom42]

58 minutes ago, ChinaShrek said:

During World War One people sailed the Lusitania knowing there was a chance they it could be attacked. The cruise ship was attacked and sank to the bottom of the sea BUT it helped bring about American entry into the war. 

But those people were not sailing Lusitania on a vacation, they had a need to get from one place to another — no airlines in those days.

 

There’s valor, and then there’s discretion.

 

Argument aside, there’s no way any current cruise line’s insurers would allow ships to sail into an actual war zone.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, ChinaShrek said:

Then the terrorists win! We must all do our part to have a free world. During World War One people sailed the Lusitania knowing there was a chance they it could be attacked. The cruise ship was attacked and sank to the bottom of the sea BUT it helped bring about American entry into the war. 

 

Not even close to being a comparable situation, for many reasons. The Lusitania was providing a liner service for people that had to cross the Atlantic for mostly business or family reasons. Those taking World Cruises/Grand Voyage are going on holiday.

 

As pax, you will not have the decision on whether the terrorists win, as that decision will be made by the vessel insurers or the cruise line's Safety Management System.

[HappyInVan]

On 1/7/2024 at 5:53 AM, ChinaShrek said:

We must all do our part to have a free world.

 

Please note that two ships (Gibraltar Eagle and Genco Picardy) have been hit by a missile and a drone respectively in the last 3 days. They were located south of Aden. The Houthi/Iranians have discovered a hole in the coverage of the Allied forces. The Allies just don't have enough ships/planes in the area.

 

In addition, each Allied warship has a limited amount of SAM munitions. We (non-essential traffic) must stay out of the way because our warships must reserve enough munitions to defend themselves.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Diamond_(D34)

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

 

 

 

[Wh2437]

25 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Please note that two ships (Gibraltar Eagle and Genco Picardy) have been hit by a missile and a drone respectively in the last 3 days. They were located south of Aden. The Houthi/Iranians have discovered a hole in the coverage of the Allied forces. The Allies just don't have enough ships/planes in the area.

 

In addition, each Allied warship has a limited amount of SAM munitions. We (non-essential traffic) must stay out of the way because our warships must reserve enough munitions to defend themselves.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Diamond_(D34)

 

Thank you for your understanding.