Exaggerated or Not?

[DarrenM]

It matters not what the 15 year old was doing or whether they had the freedom to roam.

 

The only guilty ones are the perpetraitors. And they should be hung drawn and quartered.

[ed01106]

19 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

Other than while a kid is physically in kid's club (teen's club), I doubt any cruise line is going to accept responsibility for monitoring a minor. I doubt their insurance companies would insure that level of responsibility.

 

So they take zero responsibility to not serve alcohol to 15 year olds.  Even 15 year olds that are already extremely intoxicated.  

 

How far does this lack of supervision go?  If they see a 5 year old by herself running towards the pool, jump in, and sink to the bottom do they ignore that too?

 

What if a 12 yo is in the dinning room without his parents and starts choking on some pizza?  Do they ignore that?

 

If RCL won’t take responsibility and pledge to use this as a teaching moment to better train their staff, than no passenger should feel safe sailing RCL especially those with children.

[Cruiser_1977]

I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm just stating what is written in their contract. I have yet to sail on an RCCL ship. I can tell you other lines I have been on have no lifeguard and have swim at your own risk type signs. As for the pizza situation, I would hope someone (guest, waiter, cook) would react. However, RCCL would not likely be negligent in the child choking situation. As I stated above, "I have no idea if the bartenders/staff realized she was underage. Since she wasn't "buying" her card wasn't swiped. They probably assumed one of the men was a guardian. I am NOT saying they bear no responsibility. Similar to a land-based bar being responsible for the amount of alcohol they serve."

 

PS I was curious about pool rules on RCCL. https://www.royalcaribbean.com/faq/questions/are-there-restrictions-for-pools-water-slides-or-flowrider

There is a line"Children must be supervised by an adult at all times". However, one line down it does say they have lifeguard during specified hours.

Edited August 12, 2019 by JennyB1977

[ed01106]

1 minute ago, JennyB1977 said:

I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm just stating what is written in their contract. I have yet to sail on an RCCL ship. I can tell you other lines I have been on have no lifeguard and have swim at your own risk type signs. As for the pizza situation, I would hope someone (guest, waiter, cook) would react. However, RCCL would not likely be negligent in the child choking situation. As I stated above, "I have no idea if the bartenders/staff realized she was underage. Since she wasn't "buying" her card wasn't swiped. They probably assumed one of the men was a guardian. I am NOT saying they bear no responsibility. Similar to a land-based bar being responsible for the amount of alcohol they serve."

I get the no lifeguard swim at your own risk.  But I would have serious issue if the RCL employee rearranging the deck chairs just pointed at the swim at your own risk sign as a toddler drowned rather than did something.

 

Likewise when I was a waiter I trained to respond to someone chocking. 

 

RCL does a top notch job at making sure that passengers with a drink package don’t share with those without a package, they can make sure that a person having drinks purchased for is 21.

[Blondilu]

51 minutes ago, DarrenM said:

It matters not what the 15 year old was doing or whether they had the freedom to roam.

 

The only guilty ones are the perpetraitors. And they should be hung drawn and quartered.

This, this, this. 

 

Where were the rapists parents?  How were they raised?  Were the rapists adults and how is it even logistically possible that 12 like-minded men of any age were in the same place at the same place to get together to do such an awful thing?  Or were they traveling in a group with this as a goal?  Or is it just the mind set of ALL men that given the right set of circumstances it could come to this?   I really don't want to believe that, but surely one or more of them would have said, no wait, this is wrong.  

 

Or is the story, in fact, exaggerated?  So many questions.  I wasn't there so have no idea and wouldn't want to speculate.  But, I really don't get any of it.

[h-sar]

Deleted 

Edited August 13, 2019 by h-sar

[clo]

9 hours ago, fyree39 said:

Do you have kids?  More importantly, do you have teens? People without kids usually have these unrealistic expectations.  Having a 15 year old remain supervised constantly on any vacation is a pretty ridiculous expectation.

Perhaps a reason to not do a cruise with that age?

[chipmaster]

Lovely debate, in the end sad these things like many others happen.

 

Hmm, ship lots of people from all over the world come togather to have a "good" time.   Lots of things to do, often many teens first time to get out and alone, with groups from the kids clubs, lots of parents enjoying all the activities and their own free time.    

Ship with a party / fun atmosphere, never saw an packages of all you can drink packages.

 

Hmm, for parents, you know your kids only tendencies, weakness, take care.            Having three kids two now out of college and the last going in, well know they are all angels.  Most parents have no clue to what their lives are like or could be like or what they are surrounded by.   

[ldubs]

7 hours ago, DarrenM said:

It matters not what the 15 year old was doing or whether they had the freedom to roam.

 

The only guilty ones are the perpetraitors. And they should be hung drawn and quartered.

 

Yep.  Maybe one of those "unsupervised" cells.  And, leave a length of rope.  

[Toofarfromthesea]

It is not about what happens at age 15.  It is what the parents were doing for the 15 years leading up to age 15.  Real parenting is not easy.  Between ages 10-14, approximately, a royal battle occurs that most parents are not even aware of.  This is when kids choose their parents' values or their peer group's values.  Saw it over and over again, in 15 years of teaching that age range.

[ilikeanswers]

11 hours ago, Blondilu said:

This, this, this. 

 

Where were the rapists parents?  How were they raised?  Were the rapists adults and how is it even logistically possible that 12 like-minded men of any age were in the same place at the same place to get together to do such an awful thing?  Or were they traveling in a group with this as a goal?  Or is it just the mind set of ALL men that given the right set of circumstances it could come to this?   I really don't want to believe that, but surely one or more of them would have said, no wait, this is wrong.  

 

Or is the story, in fact, exaggerated?  So many questions.  I wasn't there so have no idea and wouldn't want to speculate.  But, I really don't get any of it.

 

It is funny you ask this because just last month a two year study was released looking into incidents like this and domestic violence and why men participate or don't speak out about violence against women. The researcher who herself works at a women's shelter, hence why she started the study found from her interviews with thousands of men that the over riding reason was oddly embarrassment.

 

The men stated that they didn't want to be "laughed at" by their male peers, didn't want to be "seen as a p***y". The research is fascinating and there is more detail than my quick summary but it does suggest that maybe we as a society have focused far too long on how we raise our daughters to be strong and smart but haven't given the same attention to our sons to give them the tools to be strong and secure in themselves to also say no🤔. 

[ilikeanswers]

Whatever is in the fine print the cruise lines advertise themselves as "family friendly". I saw a TV ad for one cruise line that had a storyline about the parents being "freed" from their kids. And this is a theme that is constantly pushed in a lot of cruise line ads that parents can have a break from being parents because the cruise line will take care of their kids. The cruise line is creating an expectation of safety. To fall back on terms and conditions is just reprehensible. If nothing else they should be sued for false advertising. If they don't want to take responsibility for minors then they shouldn't be advertising like they do. It is the cruise line that pushes the narrative that they look after your kids so when something goes wrong you can't deny that responsibility. 

[oskarNZ]

4 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

It is not about what happens at age 15.  It is what the parents were doing for the 15 years leading up to age 15.  Real parenting is not easy.  Between ages 10-14, approximately, a royal battle occurs that most parents are not even aware of.  This is when kids choose their parents' values or their peer group's values.  Saw it over and over again, in 15 years of teaching that age range.

 

I would agree with this.  However, my thinking is focused on how incredibly important it is that we bring up children who respect the bodies and well-being of others.  

 

What happened to this child is horrific.

The more we blame the girl’s parents or the ship, the more we minimalise the actions of the perpetrators.  

[momofmab]

17 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

At 14 my daughters’ took the train to NYC and the train down the shore (dd16 is heading down tomorrow with friends). I’ve raised 5 teens, so know a tremendous amount of them, and their parents, and no one I know would bat an eye at 15 year old being unsupervised on a ship. Heck, the teen club is 12+, and they are free to come and go. At 18, they are legal adults in the eye of the law, you don’t keep them bubbled wrapped until then. 15 year olds hold jobs, go riding around with other teens in cars, go to the mall, heck half apps every Saturday night after 10 pm at Applebee’s. In a couple of years they head off to college. We are talking high school sophomores. 

 

I agree with you.  My daughters are 24 and 16.  In 2 years the 16 year old will be leaving for college, quite possibly 1 or 2 states away.  As a parent, it's your duty to raise confident, independent, responsible young adults and part of that is letting them do things on their own  - so you can make sure they can adequately problem solve and you can address any issues before they are out on their own.  Obviously this was a tragic situation and should generate conversations with your teen about underaged alcohol consumption and not going into anyone's cabin, but not a reason, IMO, to never let your teen out of your sight.

 

As a teen I used to regularly take the train to NYC with my friends in the 1980's, way before cell phones.  NYC was a lot grittier back then.  Got my first fake ID right in Times Square!  Good times!

Edited August 13, 2019 by momofmab

[DarrenM]

A child of almost any age(Within reason of course) should be free to roam around a cruise ship and feel completely safe that scumbags are not going to attack them or take advantage of them.

 

I find it amazing that some folk appear to be somehow blaming parents for the ir kids being attacked by evil adults.

 

Without actually saying it, some of you seem to be suggesting some kids deserve it.

[calliopecruiser]

1 hour ago, momofmab said:

As a parent, it's your duty to raise confident, independent, responsible young adults and part of that is letting them do things on their own  - so you can make sure they can adequately problem solve and you can address any issues before they are out on their own.  Obviously this was a tragic situation and should generate conversations with your teen about underaged alcohol consumption and not going into anyone's cabin, but not a reason, IMO, to never let your teen out of your sight.

Nicely said!

 

 

Are parents to blame if their child does something criminal?  Would you expect a parent to apologize for their teen or young-adult child commits a crime?   These are questions kind of in the same vein....if your 18 or 19 year old son committed murder, is it fair of others to expect you to apologize?  I don't think so.

[Blondilu]

2 hours ago, DarrenM said:

A child of almost any age(Within reason of course) should be free to roam around a cruise ship and feel completely safe that scumbags are not going to attack them or take advantage of them.

 

I find it amazing that some folk appear to be somehow blaming parents for the ir kids being attacked by evil adults.

 

Without actually saying it, some of you seem to be suggesting some kids deserve it.

Yes, this was another question that came to mind thinking about all this:  Why shouldn't a child be safe from this kind of thing on a cruise ship? 

 

At that age and much younger we ran all over our town.  I'm sure my parents worried about all kinds of things but taught us responsibility from a very young age and then allowed us the freedom we needed to grow into responsible adults.  I'm sure it would have been no different had we ever taken a cruise.  

 

Here's another question.  Last weekend I had to listen to a family member go on and on about some TV report regarding this crime and how dangerous cruises were.  Apparently it alluded to the "rampant" sexual assaults that occur on cruise ships.  Eleven cruises and I haven't been aware of it.  Or have I been blind?  Is it true?

 

 

[ed01106]

2 hours ago, momofmab said:

 

  Obviously this was a tragic situation and should generate conversations with your teen about underaged alcohol consumption and not going into anyone's cabin, but not a reason, IMO, to never let your teen out of your sight.

And I think the most important part of the underage drinking conversation is know your limits rather than just say no.

 

You drank underage, I drank underage.....and almost certainly your teens did too.

 

I claim that I was a responsible juvenile delinquent.  When I was 18 in my state the drinking age had been raised, but in a neighboring state 60 miles away I was legal.  We would drive to the store, put the booze in the trunk, drive home, drink in the woods, walk home.  We broke many laws hence juvenile delinquents.  But unlike some from my town who went to the out of state bars we didn’t drive drunk hence responsible juvenile delinquents.  

 

I believe in being honest with teens and telling them having a couple of drinks underage really isn’t all that big of a deal.  But don’t drive and don’t drink so much you are no longer able to make decisions.

 

[Toofarfromthesea]

5 hours ago, oskarNZ said:

 

I would agree with this.  However, my thinking is focused on how incredibly important it is that we bring up children who respect the bodies and well-being of others.  

 

What happened to this child is horrific.

The more we blame the girl’s parents or the ship, the more we minimalise the actions of the perpetrators.  

 

Yes, there will always be predators.  Part of parenting is teaching your kids how to avoid them.  Doing so does nothing to reduce the culpability of the criminal.  But lots of parents do it badly.  

[Hlitner]

On 8/12/2019 at 10:41 AM, fyree39 said:

I once sat as a juror on a civil case involving a sexual assault of a minor. I read the above USA Today story (an easier read, imo) and I agree that the cruise line should bear most of the responsibility.  Parents let their older kids explore the ship by themselves on every cruise. If the cruise line isn't willing to keep an eye out for nefarious behavior between teens and adults, which was certainly going on in this case, then they need to pay the price for this neglect.

Guess we will have to disagree!  In fact, perhaps these kind of situations would stop if the cruise lines started suing the parents for harming the reputation of the cruise line.  Parents are responsible for the teens.  Sure, we all give our kids some degree of freedom on a cruise (and elsewhere) but that does not mean we give them complete freedom!   While some blame can be laid on the cruise line, the main problem is the lack of appropriate supervision by the parents.  In all our years of cruising (over forty) we have only witnessed one situation where a cruise line (Princess) actually did deal with a group of unsupervised teens.  After several warnings to the parents (to control their kids) the entire family (actually two families) was tossed off the ship at a Caribbean port.  In this case the parents simply refused to do anything to control their kids...insisting that the cruise line should be able to maintain control.  And the cruise line did just that by tossing them off the ship.

 

Hank

[ed01106]

12 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Guess we will have to disagree!  In fact, perhaps these kind of situations would stop if the cruise lines started suing the parents for harming the reputation of the cruise line.  

 

Hank

Good luck with that.  Rather than check the sail and sign card of a 15 yo in a bar to determine if she is old enough to consume alcohol, server her until she passes out and then sue her parents for letting her get drunk.

 

Are you out of your mind? Any bar that serves a 15 yo w/o checking id is seriously breaching their responsibility.  

 

If RCL won’t take responsibility for preventing underage drinking, the US government should ban RCL from selling alcohol on any ship that docks at a US port.

[Hlitner]

9 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

Good luck with that.  Rather than check the sail and sign card of a 15 yo in a bar to determine if she is old enough to consume alcohol, server her until she passes out and then sue her parents for letting her get drunk.

 

Are you out of your mind? Any bar that serves a 15 yo w/o checking id is seriously breaching their responsibility.  

 

If RCL won’t take responsibility for preventing underage drinking, the US government should ban RCL from selling alcohol on any ship that docks at a US port.

If you carefully read the story, the bar was not serving the minor.  The minor got her drinks from men.  On a crowded ship of thousands it is difficult for a handful of security folks to monitor everybody's activities and see who is giving what to whom.  A rum and coke looks just like a coke.  At to your proposal that the US Government should become everyone's parents that idea was once tried and it was called the 18th Amendment.  How well did that work out?

 

What our society needs are parents who act as parents and not expect everyone else to take care of their children.

 

Hank

[mjkacmom]

19 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

Good luck with that.  Rather than check the sail and sign card of a 15 yo in a bar to determine if she is old enough to consume alcohol, server her until she passes out and then sue her parents for letting her get drunk.

 

Are you out of your mind? Any bar that serves a 15 yo w/o checking id is seriously breaching their responsibility.  

 

If RCL won’t take responsibility for preventing underage drinking, the US government should ban RCL from selling alcohol on any ship that docks at a US port.

On land, if harm comes to someone because bartenders have grossly over served someone, the establishment is found at fault. If a 15 year old got drunk at a bar, where the legal drinking age is 21, that bar is in serious trouble. The men are obviously to blame (it’s horrific that they all thought this was okay), but it could’ve been prevented.

[*Miss G*]

57 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

the main problem is the lack of appropriate supervision by the parents.

 

The main problem is absolutely NOT the lack of supervision by the parents. 

[mjkacmom]

44 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

If you carefully read the story, the bar was not serving the minor.  The minor got her drinks from men.  On a crowded ship of thousands it is difficult for a handful of security folks to monitor everybody's activities and see who is giving what to whom.  A rum and coke looks just like a coke.  At to your proposal that the US Government should become everyone's parents that idea was once tried and it was called the 18th Amendment.  How well did that work out?

 

What our society needs are parents who act as parents and not expect everyone else to take care of their children.

 

Hank

So parents need to be by their teenagers’ sides at all times to prevent them from being attacked?