Are our cruising days over? (merged topics re: health and age restrictions)

[RocketMan275]

6 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I have read that people of color die at a higher rate than white people. Would you also maintain that it would not be discrimination if the letters were required only for non-whites? And also males seem to die at a higher rate (might be connected to more willing to take risky behavior). Would a letter requirement only for males meet your test for non-discrimination?

 

And my state requires everyone applying for a driver's license or renewal to pass an eye test. No discrimination by age.

Are you saying that those states that do require an eye test after a certain age are age discriminatory?

Since these letters do apply to both blacks and males as well as white females, your hypothetical questions are irrelevant.

[RocketMan275]

14 hours ago, mimip said:

 

Unfortunately, it is discrimination, as those under 70 are not required to submit a doctor’s letters, even though they may fit the criteria (diabetes, asthma, heart issues,

cancer, etc,).  If the cruise lines want to be serious about this, all cruisers should have to submit a signed letter.

You need to familiarize yourself with the definition of age discrimination.

[mimip]

I am very familiar with the definition of age discrimination!  Are you?

[Daniel A]

2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

You need to familiarize yourself with the definition of age discrimination.

Where would one find such a definition?  

[RocketMan275]

13 hours ago, Tedferg said:

I believe there is statistical data to show that eyesight deteriorates with age and requiring an eye test is a simple precaution. This does not compare with requiring EVERYONE over 70 to have a fit-to-sail letter, which it seems most doctors would not sign. Also driving tests, not necessarily renewals, require young and old to be able to read the chart and so catch young people who need corrective lenses. The Fit-to-Sail requirement does not catch the 25 year old with severe asthma.

Equally so, there is statistical evidence that age is a factor in the severity of infection.   There is statistical evidence that those cormordalities are also a factor in the severity.  

[mimip]

5 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Are you saying that those states that do require an eye test after a certain age are age discriminatory?

Since these letters do apply to both blacks and males as well as white females, your hypothetical questions are irrelevant.

This hypothetical statement is not irrelevant.  It is just pointing out how unfair it would be to discriminate on sex and race when deciding who needs this “letter”.

[RocketMan275]

Just now, Daniel A said:

Where would one find such a definition?  

Google. It's been posted several times in this thread.  

 

From the EEOC:  "An employment policy or practice that applies to everyone, regardless of age, can be illegal if it has a negative impact on applicants or employees age 40 or older and is not based on a reasonable factor other than age (RFOA)."

 

 

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, mimip said:

This hypothetical statement is not irrelevant.  It is just pointing out how unfair it would be to discriminate on sex and race when deciding who needs this “letter”.

Fairness isn't the issue.  Whether there is a rationale reason to treat some differently is the issue.

[mimip]

1 minute ago, RocketMan275 said:

Fairness isn't the issue.  Whether there is a rationale reason to treat some differently is the issue.

At this time, more people of color and younger people are being affected.  So where is your rationale that excluding those over 70 with controlled issues is not discrimination.  And if you google discrimination there are other meanings besides those expressed by the EEOC.  We are not talking employment.  And what are cormordalities?  It didn’t show up in my dictionary.

[RocketMan275]

4 minutes ago, mimip said:

At this time, more people of color and younger people are being affected.  So where is your rationale that excluding those over 70 with controlled issues is not discrimination.  And if you google discrimination there are other meanings besides those expressed by the EEOC.  We are not talking employment.  And what are cormordalities?  It didn’t show up in my dictionary.

If  you want to claim that this is illegal discrimination, then the EEOC definition is the important one.  Any claim of age discrimination would have to pass muster with the EEOC.  Without the EEOC, your case would face a very large hurdle in the courts.

Thanks for the correction:  My dictionary suggested a misspelling of comorbidity:  "In medicine, comorbidity is the presence of one or more additional conditions co-occurring with a primary condition; in the countable sense of the term, a comorbidity is each additional condition. The additional condition may also be a behavioral or mental disorder." Wikipedia.  I think my misspelling was close enough for the meaning to be apparent.  

[mimip]

29 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

If  you want to claim that this is illegal discrimination, then the EEOC definition is the important one.  Any claim of age discrimination would have to pass muster with the EEOC.  Without the EEOC, your case would face a very large hurdle in the courts.

Thanks for the correction:  My dictionary suggested a misspelling of comorbidity:  "In medicine, comorbidity is the presence of one or more additional conditions co-occurring with a primary condition; in the countable sense of the term, a comorbidity is each additional condition. The additional condition may also be a behavioral or mental disorder." Wikipedia.  I think my misspelling was close enough for the meaning to be apparent.  

Obviously, it wasn’t.  That’s why I researched it and couldn’t find it.  Now, since all cruises are cancelled for another hundred days (effective today), I have plane tickets, hotels and a cruise to cancel!  Over and out!

[HxFx]

16 hours ago, mimip said:

 

Unfortunately, it is discrimination, as those under 70 are not required to submit a doctor’s letters, even though they may fit the criteria (diabetes, asthma, heart issues,

cancer, etc,).  If the cruise lines want to be serious about this, all cruisers should have to submit a signed letter.

It may just be Carnival, but when our April cruise was not yet cancelled, they put out a new health questionnaire that everyone had to fill out when boarding. If you had one of those chronic illnesses, you just wouldn’t be allowed to board at all, regardless of age. No doctor’s note would change this. We are affected due to husband’s well controlled T1 diabetes, even though under 60.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Are you saying that those states that do require an eye test after a certain age are age discriminatory?

Since these letters do apply to both blacks and males as well as white females, your hypothetical questions are irrelevant.

I think you gave your own interpretation to what I wrote. I was saying the same risk factors that you claim make this non-discriminatory to those over 70 could be applied to non-whites or even males. But if the cruise lines using the same logic said everyone except white people had to have that letter, you know that would never be allowed.

 

And as for the eye test, all I said was my state required it of everybody, nothing more.

[SeaHunt]

3 hours ago, HxFx said:

It may just be Carnival, but when our April cruise was not yet cancelled, they put out a new health questionnaire that everyone had to fill out when boarding. If you had one of those chronic illnesses, you just wouldn’t be allowed to board at all, regardless of age. No doctor’s note would change this. We are affected due to husband’s well controlled T1 diabetes, even though under 60.

 

Yep. And some Carnival Fantasy passengers found that out at the pier when ready to board:

 

https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/carnival-passengers-say-they-were-denied-boarding-due-to-existing-conditions/

[Potstech]

Maybe some day an actual Civil Rights lawyer will post hereto explain the law.

[AF-1]

Well let's see how things change after this pandemic is under control or over.  I see changes coming;  it's all good. Have a wonderful day 

[mimip]

 

17 minutes ago, Potstech said:

Maybe some day an actual Civil Rights lawyer will post hereto explain the law.

👍👍👍

[nini]

On 4/10/2020 at 4:44 AM, RocketMan275 said:

You need to familiarize yourself with the definition of age discrimination.

 

"Age discrimination is the result of actions taken to deny or limit opportunities to people on the basis of age. These are usually actions taken as a result of one's ageist beliefs and attitudes. Age discrimination occurs on both a personal and institutional level."

 

This one is from LAW.Com and their legal dictionary.

discrimination

n. unequal treatment of persons, for a reason which has nothing to do with legal rights or ability. Federal and state laws prohibit discrimination in employment, availability of housing, rates of pay, right to promotion, educational opportunity, civil rights, and use of facilities based on race, nationality, creed, color, age, sex or sexual orientation. The rights to protest discrimination or enforce one's rights to equal treatment are provided in various federal and state laws, which allow for private lawsuits with the right to damages. There are also federal and state commissions to investigate and enforce equal rights.

 

[mimip]

20 minutes ago, nini said:

 

"Age discrimination is the result of actions taken to deny or limit opportunities to people on the basis of age. These are usually actions taken as a result of one's ageist beliefs and attitudes. Age discrimination occurs on both a personal and institutional level."

 

This one is from LAW.Com and their legal dictionary.

discrimination

n. unequal treatment of persons, for a reason which has nothing to do with legal rights or ability. Federal and state laws prohibit discrimination in employment, availability of housing, rates of pay, right to promotion, educational opportunity, civil rights, and use of facilities based on race, nationality, creed, color, age, sex or sexual orientation. The rights to protest discrimination or enforce one's rights to equal treatment are provided in various federal and state laws, which allow for private lawsuits with the right to damages. There are also federal and state commissions to investigate and enforce equal rights.

 

👍🏻 That works!

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, nini said:

 

"Age discrimination is the result of actions taken to deny or limit opportunities to people on the basis of age. These are usually actions taken as a result of one's ageist beliefs and attitudes. Age discrimination occurs on both a personal and institutional level."

 

This one is from LAW.Com and their legal dictionary.

discrimination

n. unequal treatment of persons, for a reason which has nothing to do with legal rights or ability. Federal and state laws prohibit discrimination in employment, availability of housing, rates of pay, right to promotion, educational opportunity, civil rights, and use of facilities based on race, nationality, creed, color, age, sex or sexual orientation. The rights to protest discrimination or enforce one's rights to equal treatment are provided in various federal and state laws, which allow for private lawsuits with the right to damages. There are also federal and state commissions to investigate and enforce equal rights.

 

You left out the good part.  From the EEOC website:  "An employment policy or practice that applies to everyone, regardless of age, can be illegal if it has a negative impact on applicants or employees age 40 or older and is not based on a reasonable factor other than age (RFOA)."

 

For an action to be considered 'age discrimination' you must prove it was not 'based on a reasonable factor other than age."  It is easy to argue that since age is a very significant factor in who gets the coronavirus and the health outcomes of the virus that these reasonable factors exist.  The proposed policy does not state that no one over seventy can cruise.  That would clearly be age discrimination.   It states that those over seventy with certain comorbidities, ie, reasonable factors, must have a doctor's statement that they are 'fit to cruise'.

[AF-1]

My wife has asthma;  don't see issue with her allergist/asthma doctor signing a letter for her.

[mimip]

33 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

You left out the good part.  From the EEOC website:  "An employment policy or practice that applies to everyone, regardless of age, can be illegal if it has a negative impact on applicants or employees age 40 or older and is not based on a reasonable factor other than age (RFOA)."

 

For an action to be considered 'age discrimination' you must prove it was not 'based on a reasonable factor other than age."  It is easy to argue that since age is a very significant factor in who gets the coronavirus and the health outcomes of the virus that these reasonable factors exist.  The proposed policy does not state that no one over seventy can cruise.  That would clearly be age discrimination.   It states that those over seventy with certain comorbidities, ie, reasonable factors, must have a doctor's statement that they are 'fit to cruise'.

Again, you are referring to employment which has nothing to do with our discussion.  
And it has now been found that it is the health condition, not the age that seems to be an issue with Covid 19. 😷

[Thrak]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

It is easy to argue that since age is a very significant factor in who gets the coronavirus and the health outcomes of the virus that these reasonable factors exist.

 

There are currently 14 confirmed cases in my county. seven of those are in the 18-49 age group, two are in the 50-64 range and four are 65+.

[RocketMan275]

37 minutes ago, mimip said:

Again, you are referring to employment which has nothing to do with our discussion.  
And it has now been found that it is the health condition, not the age that seems to be an issue with Covid 19. 😷

Age makes those health conditions worse.

The fact that some think this is age discrimination does not mean the courts will agree.  The commonly applied definition is the one by the EEOC.  

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, Thrak said:

 

There are currently 14 confirmed cases in my county. seven of those are in the 18-49 age group, two are in the 50-64 range and four are 65+.

Without knowing the statistics for your county, those numbers aren't that useful.  The real issue isn't the prevalence but the severity.