Are our cruising days over? (merged topics re: health and age restrictions)

[caribill]

2 minutes ago, TYinPalmSprings said:

Yes. Go to site for Royal Caribbean: www.royalcaribbean.com/cruise-ship itinerary-updates. The second section titled "Coronavirus (COVID-19) Health Protocol. They describe in detail required action and include the document that you must have signed by your doctor. 

Every day their page changes a bit. The last change was to cancels within 30 days, the only place where they will provide refunds, but going forward the over 70 doctor's rules remain.....  

I was not asking for the source of the form (which I have already seen for several cruise lines.)

 

I was asking the source indicating that physicians have been unwilling to sign these forms.

[caribill]

37 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

If their doctor isn't willing to say they are fit to travel, they probably shouldn't be travelling.  

 

 

What the doctor might be unwilling to sign is a document saying the unknown effects of a new disease will not adversely affect the chronic conditions the patient over 70 has.

[TYinPalmSprings]

10 minutes ago, caribill said:

I was not asking for the source of the form (which I have already seen for several cruise lines.)

 

I was asking the source indicating that physicians have been unwilling to sign these forms.

They are friends who have been told by their doctors. If you want to see specific situations and detail of what they encountered when they approached their doctors, there are a number of folks on travel sites, not sure if I can mention those sites on here, but they are common ones. If you focus on RCCL you will see them. I have not seen an official statement for the AMA or insurance source that refutes the mandatory document,  just details of what people experienced with their doctors when they approached them.

Edited March 15, 2020 by TYinPalmSprings

[caribill]

21 minutes ago, TYinPalmSprings said:

They are friends who have been told by their doctors. If you want to see specific situations and detail of what they encountered when they approached their doctors, there are a number of folks on travel sites, not sure if I can mention those sites on here, but they are common ones. If you focus on RCCL you will see them. I have not seen an official statement for the AMA or insurance source that refutes the mandatory document,  just details of what people experienced with their doctors when they approached them.

Thanks

[caribill]

10 hours ago, Essiesmom said:

You are missing the whole point of the restriction.  The concern is that people over 70 with these conditions are at higher risk of severe complications if they contract the virus.  They may even be more susceptible to catching it.  EM

 

Looks like Royal Caribbean will examine those under age 70 at check-in time. From their web site:

 

COVID-19 presents the most serious health risks to older individuals, the immunocompromised, and those with serious, underlying medical conditions. Therefore,

a.  Effective Monday, March 16, boarding will be denied to any person age 70 or older, unless the guest provides written verification from a qualified treating physician that certifies the person has no severe, chronic medical condition and is fit to travel.

b. Effective Friday, March 13, boarding will be denied to any person with a severe, chronic medical condition, including those specified by the CDC. Guests of all ages will be screened prior to boarding, regarding underlying health issues that may prevent them from sailing, i.e.  chronic heart, lung, liver, or kidney disease, diabetes, HIV/AIDS, or cancer.

[voljeep]

1 minute ago, caribill said:

 

Looks like Royal Caribbean will examine those under age 70 at check-in time. From their web site:

 

COVID-19 presents the most serious health risks to older individuals, the immunocompromised, and those with serious, underlying medical conditions. Therefore,

a.  Effective Monday, March 16, boarding will be denied to any person age 70 or older, unless the guest provides written verification from a qualified treating physician that certifies the person has no severe, chronic medical condition and is fit to travel.

b. Effective Friday, March 13, boarding will be denied to any person with a severe, chronic medical condition, including those specified by the CDC. Guests of all ages will be screened prior to boarding, regarding underlying health issues that may prevent them from sailing, i.e.  chronic heart, lung, liver, or kidney disease, diabetes, HIV/AIDS, or cancer.

I guess if you can't/won't get the requested CYA letter from your doctor, it's time to say KMA to the cruise lines, huh ?

[eclue]

Most doctors will use the CMA philosophy and that is " cover my ass" and refuse to give that letter.

 

[beg3yrs]

1 hour ago, caribill said:

 

 

This form requirement has been adopted also by Carnival, HAL, Royal Caribbean and others.

 

In fact, Princess is the only mass market cruise line not to require it so far. But their ships are not sailing for a 60 day period, so they do not have to rush out an announcement that they are protecting you by adopting the industry standard.

 

They may not be sailing for 60 days but they are accepting bookings for after that time.

[2wheelin]

Fine to discuss, but why would anyone be calling the overloaded call centers with such a ridiculous question. People have legitimate issues which they need answers to. I don’t agree at all with requiring different conditions based on age but a letter this week will be no good in 60 days anyway. 

Agree also that most doctors will not sign such a letter. 

[caribill]

4 minutes ago, beg3yrs said:

 

They may not be sailing for 60 days but they are accepting bookings for after that time.

 

The other cruise lines imposed the use of the form long after many of the cruises were booked, in a number of cases just a day or so before embarkation.

[tgwabd]

Would YOU sign a letter saying that you guarantee that something won't happen to another person...

[Steelers36]

1 minute ago, tgwabd said:

Would YOU sign a letter saying that you guarantee that something won't happen to another person...

The letter doesn't ask for a guarantee that something won't happen.  A form letter I saw simply asked for certification that the passenger/patient does not have certain chronic medical conditions.  If that is all that is being asked to be certified, it seems to me that is a pretty simple yes/no answer.  

[RocketMan275]

57 minutes ago, TYinPalmSprings said:

They are friends who have been told by their doctors. If you want to see specific situations and detail of what they encountered when they approached their doctors, there are a number of folks on travel sites, not sure if I can mention those sites on here, but they are common ones. If you focus on RCCL you will see them. I have not seen an official statement for the AMA or insurance source that refutes the mandatory document,  just details of what people experienced with their doctors when they approached them.

When was this policy announced.  The OP states he received a notice from his TA this last Friday (12 March).

If this policy was in fact announced on Friday, I'm sceptical that a significant number were able to discuss this with their doctors since late friday afternoon.

Sounds like the information about the doctors might just be an internet rumor.

[caribill]

8 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

The letter doesn't ask for a guarantee that something won't happen.  A form letter I saw simply asked for certification that the passenger/patient does not have certain chronic medical conditions.  If that is all that is being asked to be certified, it seems to me that is a pretty simple yes/no answer.  

 

No so simple. If does not ask if the patient just has those, it asks if those conditions would make the patient "susceptible to complications" from the virus.

 

It is not known scientifically exactly what the effect the virus has on people with those conditions. So how can any doctor certify it is ok to sail when the information needed to certify that is not available.

 

And note, Royal Caribbean says they can deny boarding to anyone of any age who ever had cancer, diabetes, etc.

Looks like Royal Caribbean will examine those under age 70 at check-in time.

 

From their web site:

 

COVID-19 presents the most serious health risks to older individuals, the immunocompromised, and those with serious, underlying medical conditions. Therefore,

a.  Effective Monday, March 16, boarding will be denied to any person age 70 or older, unless the guest provides written verification from a qualified treating physician that certifies the person has no severe, chronic medical condition and is fit to travel.

b. Effective Friday, March 13, boarding will be denied to any person with a severe, chronic medical condition, including those specified by the CDC. Guests of all ages will be screened prior to boarding, regarding underlying health issues that may prevent them from sailing, i.e.  chronic heart, lung, liver, or kidney disease, diabetes, HIV/AIDS, or cancer.

 

[chipmaster]

I'd not trust anything you hear right now, things are changing by the minute/hour/day.  The cruieslines as well as the world economy is seeing something they've never experienced, the outcome has many forks and decisions and where we end are impossible to predict, but how we get where we are going to be in 6 months will be something to debate in years to come on our next cruise, LOL

[caribill]

2 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

I'd not trust anything you hear right now, things are changing by the minute/hour/day.  The cruieslines as well as the world economy is seeing something they've never experienced, the outcome has many forks and decisions and where we end are impossible to predict, but how we get where we are going to be in 6 months will be something to debate in years to come on our next cruise, LOL

 

True.

 

But I soon have to decide if I make final payment for a cruise in July or cancel and get my $$ back,

 

Do I risk being able to have a (yet to be introduced by Princess) form willingly signed by a physician a week before the cruise deciding if I can cruise or not? 

[Potstech]

So if a passenger turns 70 during a cruise at what point will they be required to have a doctors permission to cruise?  Sorry but at that age it should be up to me and my doctor and not som cruise line whether or not I am healthy enough to cruise.

What happens if a doctor signs the form and then the passenger gets sick?  Can the passenger then sue the doctor? Can the cruise line take action against the doctor?  All this will do is create more lawsuites?

[caribill]

Just now, Potstech said:

.

What happens if a doctor signs the form and then the passenger gets sick?  Can the passenger then sue the doctor? Can the cruise line take action against the doctor?  All this will do is create more lawsuites?

 

Which is why some doctors may be reluctant to sign the form.

[Steelers36]

5 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

No so simple. If does not ask if the patient just has those, it asks if those conditions would make the patient "susceptible to complications" from the virus.

 

It is not known scientifically exactly what the effect the virus has on people with those conditions. So how can any doctor certify it is ok to sail when the information needed to certify that is not available.

 

And note, Royal Caribbean says they can deny boarding to anyone of any age who ever had cancer, diabetes, etc.

Looks like Royal Caribbean will examine those under age 70 at check-in time.

 

From their web site:

 

COVID-19 presents the most serious health risks to older individuals, the immunocompromised, and those with serious, underlying medical conditions. Therefore,

a.  Effective Monday, March 16, boarding will be denied to any person age 70 or older, unless the guest provides written verification from a qualified treating physician that certifies the person has no severe, chronic medical condition and is fit to travel.

b. Effective Friday, March 13, boarding will be denied to any person with a severe, chronic medical condition, including those specified by the CDC. Guests of all ages will be screened prior to boarding, regarding underlying health issues that may prevent them from sailing, i.e.  chronic heart, lung, liver, or kidney disease, diabetes, HIV/AIDS, or cancer.

 

Asking MD to predict with an opinion is quite different IMO than the precise wording of Item (a) above which simply asks for yes/no certification.  I guess if the form has an extra clause that makes MD balk, I'd ask the cruise line.  Anyway, it is hypothetical for me at this point as I don't sail with RCL.  Not trying to be flippant, but have more things to worry about.  The cruise line may be going too far IMO if they are asking a MD to sign-off on a predictive opinion.  The word on the street already from health officials is that indeed elderly individuals with certain chronic conditions indeed are more susceptible to complications and more serious consequences if they contract COVID-19.  

 

 

[Steelers36]

2 minutes ago, caribill said:

Do I risk being able to have a (yet to be introduced by Princess) form willingly signed by a physician a week before the cruise deciding if I can cruise or not? 

If you can get in to see your MD soon, show him/her a couple of the sample letters (I think there is a draft CLIA one) and see what they say about signing off on such a document if it was for real.

[caribill]

Just now, Steelers36 said:

If you can get in to see your MD soon, show him/her a couple of the sample letters (I think there is a draft CLIA one) and see what they say about signing off on such a document if it was for real.

 

These forms are for real:

https://www.ncl.com/sites/default/files/Certificate-of-Medical-Fitness-to-Travel-form.pdf     ncl form

 

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/content/dam/royal/resources/pdf/rccl-approved-physician-letter.pdf      RCCL form

 

 

[coo359a2]

Got my email Friday afternoon  (12th).  It was general information  ( no cruise line mentioned by name) and stated effective date was 16 March. 

[Potstech]

1 minute ago, caribill said:

 

These forms are for real:

https://www.ncl.com/sites/default/files/Certificate-of-Medical-Fitness-to-Travel-form.pdf     ncl form

 

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/content/dam/royal/resources/pdf/rccl-approved-physician-letter.pdf      RCCL form

 

 

Another reason not to cruise thosenlines.

[caribill]

1 minute ago, Potstech said:

Another reason not to cruise thosen lines.

 

Or Carnival or Celebrity or Hal or ?

[cruzsnooze]

What about kids with asthma or other health conditions? What about adults under 70 with cancer or in chemo? 

This is a violation of HIPPA my medical privacy. It's one thing to ask if I'm well enough to sail but quite another to list all those conditions.