Rethinking Muster Drills

[ed01106]

I would proffer that if the ship is running at less than 50% capacity to facilitate social distancing then using an alternative muster to limit crowding might be okay as it is easier to evacuate a half full ship.  But if the ships are over 50% capacity then normal musters are in order.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, ed01106 said:

I would proffer that if the ship is running at less than 50% capacity to facilitate social distancing then using an alternative muster to limit crowding might be okay as it is easier to evacuate a half full ship.  But if the ships are over 50% capacity then normal musters are in order.

If the ship is at 50% or less capacity, then each muster station will have 50% or less people at it, so more space available per person and more distancing, even with a traditional muster.

[ed01106]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

If the ship is at 50% or less capacity, then each muster station will have 50% or less people at it, so more space available per person and more distancing, even with a traditional muster.

True.  But even at 50% a muster station would be too crowded to remain two meters apart.  

 

My point is if there is a drastic change to the muster drill under the pretense of Covid prevention, it should only be occurring if all of the other things necessary to prevent Covid spread is also occurring.  Such as reducing capacity to the point that deck chairs are properly spaced, hall ways are one way, dining tables are properly spaced, etc.  If capacity is dropped to the point that the ONLY thing that won’t work with the 6 feet protocols is a traditional muster drill then and only then should an alternate muster drill be considered.  Otherwise the ship should simply not be allowed to sail.

Edited September 9, 2020 by ed01106

[chengkp75]

One way passageways?  That doesn't even work in the local supermarket.  Let's look at Oasis of the Seas.  I am in cabin 12614, aft on the starboard side of deck 12.  I want to go see someone in cabin 12692, further aft on the starboard side of deck 12.  But, OMG, the port passageway is "forward only", so I have to walk to the forward elevator bank, cross to the port side, where the passageway is "aft only", walk all the way aft, go down 6 decks, cross back over to the starboard side, outside, and then back up 6 decks to get to his cabin.  Good luck with that.

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

If the ship is at 50% or less capacity, then each muster station will have 50% or less people at it, so more space available per person and more distancing, even with a traditional muster.

Yes, but the passengers will still miss their time at the bar.

 

It's hard to believe after all you and Heidi and Aquahound have said that there are still people who believe that the drills are unnecessary for the crew and for the passengers.

 

We all had fire drills back when we were in elementary and high school. I hope none of us ever really had to put that training into place, but they were still necessary. And now the schools have "active shooter" drills". You sure hope that they never have to use that training, but you hopefully understand why academic time is taken away for those new drills.

 

And when boarding a ship, you hope there never really is a call for muster other than the drill, but you really should understand why they are necessary. Thanks for reminding us over and over.

[Aquahound]

17 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

30 minutes that are "required" to emergency disembark a ship the size of the Symphony of the Seas.  The Commandant of the USCG at that time, if it ever happens, will have some questions to answer regarding that regulation when it proves not possible to do with guests that are not as cooperative and following instructions as those who participated in such a drill to "prove" that such a time frame for evacuation is possible to do.  

 

Chengkp75 pretty much nailed it regarding USCG responsibilities in these regards.  Guidance is constantly being updated by the USCG Marine Safety Center and National Center of Expertise, but guidance doesn't override applicable laws.  That said, ships found to not be in compliance, even foreign flagged ships, could be subjected to a Captain of the Port order, barring them from port, or even from getting underway.  Violation of those orders is criminal under US law.      

[rkacruiser]

5 hours ago, ontheweb said:

We all had fire drills back when we were in elementary and high school. I hope none of us ever really had to put that training into place, but they were still necessary.

 

The fire alarm rang during the last day of school.  We evacuated the building as we were trained to do with everyone--staff and students alike--thinking it was "fake news" to quote a popular phrase of 2020.  When we began seeing smoke coming out of a window on the second floor of the building, what was "fake news" became very real.  

 

No real damage was done.  An idiotic 9th grader placed some type of device in his locker made from chemicals that he somehow stole from our science stockroom.  It started a fire that caused the issue.

[rkacruiser]

Forgive me for being a sceptic, please.  On a ship the size of Symphony of the Seas, guests are called to their Muster Station.  There is a fire aboard.  Smoke begins to filter into the Muster Station.  The ship develops a list.  While the ship was built to the latest standards to be "its own lifeboat to return to port", something prevents that.  With the list and the smoke, what will be the mind set of the guests?  How "easily" will it be to escort these thousands of guests to their lifeboats within a 30 minute time period?  

 

It's like when we fly.  Aircraft are supposed to be able to be evacuated within a certain time frame when an accident happens.  Sometimes, such "rules" work.  Sometimes, those "rules" don't work.  

 

Muster Drills are important because if one knows what needs to be done--even if one has to jump off the ship and know how to handle the life jacket when one enters the water--attendance at such a Drill is vital to one's possible survival.  

 

30 minutes to evacuate a ship of any size when the conditions are less than "ideal" would be a challenge that I hope we never have to witness.  

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

Forgive me for being a sceptic, please.  On a ship the size of Symphony of the Seas, guests are called to their Muster Station.  There is a fire aboard.  Smoke begins to filter into the Muster Station.  The ship develops a list.  While the ship was built to the latest standards to be "its own lifeboat to return to port", something prevents that.  With the list and the smoke, what will be the mind set of the guests?  How "easily" will it be to escort these thousands of guests to their lifeboats within a 30 minute time period?  

 

It's like when we fly.  Aircraft are supposed to be able to be evacuated within a certain time frame when an accident happens.  Sometimes, such "rules" work.  Sometimes, those "rules" don't work.  

 

Muster Drills are important because if one knows what needs to be done--even if one has to jump off the ship and know how to handle the life jacket when one enters the water--attendance at such a Drill is vital to one's possible survival.  

 

30 minutes to evacuate a ship of any size when the conditions are less than "ideal" would be a challenge that I hope we never have to witness.  

I wonder how many of the passengers even think of these type of things. I'll admit I have not while onboard.

 

They are the kind of things that I'm sure worry those in charge with responsibility for the safety of the passengers and the ship.

[sanger727]

16 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

Forgive me for being a sceptic, please.  On a ship the size of Symphony of the Seas, guests are called to their Muster Station.  There is a fire aboard.  Smoke begins to filter into the Muster Station.  The ship develops a list.  While the ship was built to the latest standards to be "its own lifeboat to return to port", something prevents that.  With the list and the smoke, what will be the mind set of the guests?  How "easily" will it be to escort these thousands of guests to their lifeboats within a 30 minute time period?  

 

It's like when we fly.  Aircraft are supposed to be able to be evacuated within a certain time frame when an accident happens.  Sometimes, such "rules" work.  Sometimes, those "rules" don't work.  

 

Muster Drills are important because if one knows what needs to be done--even if one has to jump off the ship and know how to handle the life jacket when one enters the water--attendance at such a Drill is vital to one's possible survival.  

 

30 minutes to evacuate a ship of any size when the conditions are less than "ideal" would be a challenge that I hope we never have to witness.  

 

I've never been to a muster drill that would have prepared me for that situation. For that situation the crew needs to be prepared to lead the passengers. And I am skeptical that the traditional muster drill format imparts training to the crew for that level of a situation. I assume the leaders for the muster stations get much more intense training for situations like this. 

[Heidi13]

16 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

30 minutes to evacuate a ship of any size when the conditions are less than "ideal" would be a challenge that I hope we never have to witness.  

 

Having participated in 5 timed evacuation trials, of which we passed 4 and failed 1 due to equipment failure, I can attest that it isn't easy. Fortunately, we only used Marine Evacuation Systems, not lifeboats, as in my experience MES can be easier to achieve the capacity.

 

However, our volunteers were all standing and waiting at the MES Station, so we didn't have to move them from the assembly station. We also didn't have babies/toddlers or special needs. The ships were all secured to the dock, upright, with no wind, rain, pitching or rolling. It was also during daylight. I also hand picked the crews, with officers drilling them for a few days.

 

Our Flag State (Transport Canada) interpretation of SOLAS and Flag State Regulations set the requirements. The clock started as the Master issued the "Abandon Ship" order and it stopped when the last raft was towed 100 yds from the ship.

 

Probably the best conditions possible to evacuate a ship. We only used 1 system, but had access to both FRC's, which would be a shared resource with multiple MES. I recall our best time was 27.5 mins, so under less than ideal conditions, achieving the capacity of even a single station would be a challenge. 

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I wonder how many of the passengers even think of these type of things. I'll admit I have not while onboard.

 

They are the kind of things that I'm sure worry those in charge with responsibility for the safety of the passengers and the ship.

 

It was certainly a concern. One of my previous commands, we had a compliment of almost 1,600. The original 1st generation Marine Evacuation Systems didn't work so were replaced with 8 liferaft davits that each had to launch 8 rafts, if at capacity.

 

Although the ships had an exemption to 45 mins, it would have taken much longer, especially getting rafts away from the ship as we only had 2 small FRC.

 

With the newer ships, I was less concerned, especially when MES were fitted and I had witnessed the trials.

 

Personally, I'm happily retired, as managing 6,000+ pax and 2,000+ crew is a daunting task, I wouldn't relish.

[Heidi13]

21 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

I've never been to a muster drill that would have prepared me for that situation. For that situation the crew needs to be prepared to lead the passengers. And I am skeptical that the traditional muster drill format imparts training to the crew for that level of a situation. I assume the leaders for the muster stations get much more intense training for situations like this. 

 

 

Affirmative, the Muster Drill is not designed to prepare pax to actually abandon a ship. The Muster Drill is a small component of a ship's overall emergency response plan. All crew are trained in emergency duties to a level appropriate to their rank or rating, which generally dictate their role. By attending the current Muster Drill, in my opinion and experience, the pax are also receiving appropriate familiarisation. Some pax are capable of receiving more information, but others are not.

 

The purpose of a Muster Drill is not to prepare pax for the very unlikely event of abandoning ship, which by the very nature of the event, may have many variables, many of which can develop at short notice. It requires you to recognise the GES (at least 7 short + 1 prolonged ring/tone) on the General Alarm system, which may also be supplemented on the ship's whistle. On hearing this signal you go to your Assembly Station, following the routing directions of the crew. This conditions pax to follow crew directions and provides the crew with herd management practice.

 

The timing of sounding GES during an emergency is at the discretion of the Master. On all my ships, we had internal Assembly Stations, so I would have sounded GES shortly after the stairway guides were in place, if the situation was not contained or had a potential to develop. Some Masters may wait longer. This can dictate the amount of time pax can be at Assembly Stations. On the Star Princess, I believe it was about 7 hrs, lots of time to familiarise pax if abandoning was required.

 

The stairway guides will have basic training, while Assembly Station leaders will have additional levels of training. Once you get to Deck/Engineering Officers and especially the Master/Chief Engineer and senior officers, the training is extensive - technical, fire fighting/containment, evacuation craft, emergency response, human factors and many, many more. In addition to initial training, they also have regular refresher courses to attend.

 

Further to training and drills, many companies also employ flying squads that visit the ships to audit crew emergency response.

 

As per the Muster Drill, at the Assembly Stations, as per the Star Princess example, the crew will provide pax with updates and additional familiarisation, if additional actions are required. In the unlikely event of evacuation, pax will be prepared for the procedure in the Assembly Station.

 

Please be assured, all crew are trained and drilled for their emergency duties, which vary by rank and rating. 

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I've never been to a muster drill that would have prepared me for that situation.....

 

....of abandoning the ship.  

 

Once, I was at such a drill.  And, I think it was on Star Princess because it was an indoor Muster Station and was an "unique" experience for me at that time.  

 

As the Muster Drill came to an end, an announcement was made by the crew member in charge of my Station that for those who wished to participate and would remain for a few minutes longer, we would be given instructions concerning evacuation from the ship and would be taken to where our lifeboats would be.  Accurately, I don't remember how many guests stayed (there were probably a dozen or so including me) nor what we were told at the time.  After some instructions, we were led from our Muster Station to our lifeboats where some additional information was provided.  It didn't take long.  Afterwards, I thought this was an excellent addition to the Drill if, for no other reason, should it be needed to take to the lifeboats, at least a few at that Station would have a "tiny bit" of "experience" that might be of benefit in helping the crew to "herd the cats", aka the cruise guests, at a time of extreme emergency.  

[sanger727]

41 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

....of abandoning the ship.  

 

Once, I was at such a drill.  And, I think it was on Star Princess because it was an indoor Muster Station and was an "unique" experience for me at that time.  

 

As the Muster Drill came to an end, an announcement was made by the crew member in charge of my Station that for those who wished to participate and would remain for a few minutes longer, we would be given instructions concerning evacuation from the ship and would be taken to where our lifeboats would be.  Accurately, I don't remember how many guests stayed (there were probably a dozen or so including me) nor what we were told at the time.  After some instructions, we were led from our Muster Station to our lifeboats where some additional information was provided.  It didn't take long.  Afterwards, I thought this was an excellent addition to the Drill if, for no other reason, should it be needed to take to the lifeboats, at least a few at that Station would have a "tiny bit" of "experience" that might be of benefit in helping the crew to "herd the cats", aka the cruise guests, at a time of extreme emergency.  

... of abandoning ship when it’s in fire AND smoke is obscuring visibility in the muster and AND the ship is listing AND with the goal of everyone being off the ship in 30 minutes. I would suspect that this is an extreme situation that only professional mariners would be able to pull off; once you add passengers, disabilities, special needs into the mix; isnt going to happen. Based on what some of the professionals have posted I would think that the goal would be to at least have passengers at the lifeboats if not boarding already well before the situation escalated this far.

[Aquahound]

19 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

There is a fire aboard.  Smoke begins to filter into the Muster Station.  The ship develops a list.  While the ship was built to the latest standards to be "its own lifeboat to return to port", something prevents that.  With the list and the smoke, what will be the mind set of the guests?  How "easily" will it be to escort these thousands of guests to their lifeboats within a 30 minute time period?  

 

9 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

... of abandoning ship when it’s in fire AND smoke is obscuring visibility in the muster and AND the ship is listing AND with the goal of everyone being off the ship in 30 minutes.

 

I'll be blunt.  That's a hell scenario.  Fire and severe listing can render lifeboats inaccessible or not launchable.  Think about the Star Princess fire where several lifeboats were inaccessible.  Think about the Costa Concordia where lifeboats couldn't be lowered due to the list.  If Concordia sank out at sea, the casualties probably would have been in the hundreds. 

 

I won't candy coat it.  A scenario involving a major fire, smoke and listing, especially out at sea where the ship can't be grounded and where help is not immediately available will have casualties. 

 

Throw in a scenario where crew aren't trained with full musters anymore, and the scenario becomes much worse. 

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

... of abandoning ship when it’s in fire AND smoke is obscuring visibility in the muster and AND the ship is listing AND with the goal of everyone being off the ship in 30 minutes. I would suspect that this is an extreme situation that only professional mariners would be able to pull off; once you add passengers, disabilities, special needs into the mix; isnt going to happen. Based on what some of the professionals have posted I would think that the goal would be to at least have passengers at the lifeboats if not boarding already well before the situation escalated this far.

Again, let me clarify the "30 minute" requirement.  As Andy has stated above, his flag state inspectors did not time a simulation of getting full capacity of the ship off in the boats/rafts, but only that starting with the capacity of the boat/MES standing at the boat/MES, that the stated capacity of the device could be loaded and away from the ship in 30 minutes.  Again, even in the best possible circumstances, not every boat would be loaded and lowered at the same time, as this could lead to damage to the boats while lowering or launching or trying to maneuver the bathtub away from the ship.  And, as Andy said, they were using an MES, which is a cluster of rafts with the evacuation chute attached, and these devices have a capacity of 300-500 persons, so getting that many people off a ship in 30 minutes is pretty good.  Also, special needs passengers will not be assigned to an MES station, they would go by boat, as they are easier to load.

 

As for getting passengers into the boat "ahead of time", this is not a good idea, if you've ever seen a fully loaded boat, and because there is always the chance of an equipment failure, and you wouldn't want to be in a boat 40 feet above the water, and have the cable at one end snap, and the boat be hanging by one end (which will typically overload that other wire and the boat will fall) when shortly thereafter the fire is extinguished and all the other passengers get to go back to doing their fun things, while you are lying injured in a damaged lifeboat.  You never want to get into a lifeboat unless you absolutely have to.

[chengkp75]

Just now, Aquahound said:

 

 

I'll be blunt.  That's a hell scenario.  Fire and severe listing can render lifeboats inaccessible or not launchable.  Think about the Star Princess fire where several lifeboats were inaccessible.  Think about the Costa Concordia where lifeboats couldn't be lowered due to the list.  If Concordia sank out at sea, the casualties probably would have been in the hundreds. 

 

I won't candy coat it.  A scenario involving a major fire, smoke and listing, especially out at sea where the ship can't be grounded and where help is not immediately available will have casualties. 

 

Throw in a scenario where crew aren't trained with full musters anymore, and the scenario becomes much worse. 

I'm afraid I'll disagree with you, Paul, about the Concordia.  For over an hour after striking the rock, the ship did not list more than 14* (well within the 20* that boats are capable of being launched at), and the ship did not list more than 20* until she had grounded again, and the water continuing to flood the ship could not sink the port side anymore, so it flowed to the starboard side, creating the list, using the grounding point on the port side as the pivot point.  Most analyses show that in the weather present at the time, the Concordia   would have gone down in deep water, upright, but going down by the stern.

[Aquahound]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I'm afraid I'll disagree with you, Paul, about the Concordia.  For over an hour after striking the rock, the ship did not list more than 14* (well within the 20* that boats are capable of being launched at), and the ship did not list more than 20* until she had grounded again, and the water continuing to flood the ship could not sink the port side anymore, so it flowed to the starboard side, creating the list, using the grounding point on the port side as the pivot point.  Most analyses show that in the weather present at the time, the Concordia   would have gone down in deep water, upright, but going down by the stern.

 

 

Thanks Chief.  No worries.  I appreciate your point of view.  I might have to go back and read the analysis again because I seem to remember reading it likely wouldn't have leveled before sinking.  Admittedly, it's been a while since I've looked at it. 

 

I guess my point was, throw in fire and not being near shore, and it wouldn't have been pretty. 

[sanger727]

31 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Again, let me clarify the "30 minute" requirement.  As Andy has stated above, his flag state inspectors did not time a simulation of getting full capacity of the ship off in the boats/rafts, but only that starting with the capacity of the boat/MES standing at the boat/MES, that the stated capacity of the device could be loaded and away from the ship in 30 minutes.  Again, even in the best possible circumstances, not every boat would be loaded and lowered at the same time, as this could lead to damage to the boats while lowering or launching or trying to maneuver the bathtub away from the ship.  And, as Andy said, they were using an MES, which is a cluster of rafts with the evacuation chute attached, and these devices have a capacity of 300-500 persons, so getting that many people off a ship in 30 minutes is pretty good.  Also, special needs passengers will not be assigned to an MES station, they would go by boat, as they are easier to load.

 

As for getting passengers into the boat "ahead of time", this is not a good idea, if you've ever seen a fully loaded boat, and because there is always the chance of an equipment failure, and you wouldn't want to be in a boat 40 feet above the water, and have the cable at one end snap, and the boat be hanging by one end (which will typically overload that other wire and the boat will fall) when shortly thereafter the fire is extinguished and all the other passengers get to go back to doing their fun things, while you are lying injured in a damaged lifeboat.  You never want to get into a lifeboat unless you absolutely have to.

well, I still would think that you would do everything you can to prevent a situation where passengers are in a muster station and the fire and smoke encroaches on that area to make it difficult to leave. Whether that would include moving that muster to another area or moving the passengers closer to the lifeboats.

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

 

Thanks Chief.  No worries.  I appreciate your point of view.  I might have to go back and read the analysis again because I seem to remember reading it likely wouldn't have leveled before sinking.  Admittedly, it's been a while since I've looked at it. 

 

I guess my point was, throw in fire and not being near shore, and it wouldn't have been pretty. 

It's never pretty.  When I moved up to Staff Chief and became the On Scene Commander, my first crew drill was a USCG quarterly inspection, now that really wasn't pretty.  And, yes, unlike what most cruisers feel, you're going to get to know that lifeboat real well if you have to actually abandon the ship.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, sanger727 said:

well, I still would think that you would do everything you can to prevent a situation where passengers are in a muster station and the fire and smoke encroaches on that area to make it difficult to leave. Whether that would include moving that muster to another area or moving the passengers closer to the lifeboats.

There are always alternative muster locations, especially when there are indoor muster locations, since once a fire is detected in one of the fire zones, all the ventilation in that zone (from one fire door to the next, from port side to starboard, and from the keel to the mast top) will be shut down, and the fire may affect the wiring in the zone, so loss of lighting is also a possibility, so the muster location becomes unusable.  Passengers would be moved from a threatened muster station long before it became a problem.

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

....of abandoning the ship.  

 

Once, I was at such a drill.  And, I think it was on Star Princess because it was an indoor Muster Station and was an "unique" experience for me at that time.  

 

As the Muster Drill came to an end, an announcement was made by the crew member in charge of my Station that for those who wished to participate and would remain for a few minutes longer, we would be given instructions concerning evacuation from the ship and would be taken to where our lifeboats would be.  Accurately, I don't remember how many guests stayed (there were probably a dozen or so including me) nor what we were told at the time.  After some instructions, we were led from our Muster Station to our lifeboats where some additional information was provided.  It didn't take long.  Afterwards, I thought this was an excellent addition to the Drill if, for no other reason, should it be needed to take to the lifeboats, at least a few at that Station would have a "tiny bit" of "experience" that might be of benefit in helping the crew to "herd the cats", aka the cruise guests, at a time of extreme emergency.  

I believe it was on the ,Maasdam when we had a two part muster drill. We mustered indoors, and then were marched to where the lifeboats were. There was no call for volunteers; it was everyone.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

It's okay, apparently those of us who have actually had to be in charge of passenger safety, have actually managed emergency training, have actually developed emergency plans, and who have actually dealt with maritime emergencies here on CC, are "disgruntled" and "vindictive", for some reason, against the passengers who paid our salary when we worked passenger vessels.

 

Yeah, hey, the weekly crew fire and boat drill interferes with the services to those passengers who wish to remain onboard on that day, so heck yes, let's just let them sign in on their phone and carry on with their normal duties.  And the emergency generator monthly test that blacks out the elevators for a few minutes, why should that interfere with the passengers?  We can do a simulation on our phones.  The technology is available, let's use it.

While we're getting rid of all those things that interfere with our pleasant cruise, why not eliminate the lifeboats entirely? They are a reminder that things could go terribly wrong. And also they block the view from Oceanview cabins.

 

If really needed in an emergency, just use a digital printer and voila lifeboats.

 

Note to anyone who takes this seriously---THIS IS MEANT AS SARCASM!

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

There are always alternative muster locations, especially when there are indoor muster locations

 

On a ship the size of MSC Meraviglia (on which I sailed in January), with my Muster Station packed with guests in the Main Theater, where might that be?  The other Muster Stations were aft of my location on the same deck as best that I know.  They would be full, I suspect.  Where might be the alternative Muster Station?