Rethinking Muster Drills

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

You don't get to pick and choose your seat in a lifeboat.  They are loaded from bow and stern to the middle (where the doors are), and evenly port and starboard, and you are directed to shuffle together as tight as possible as you are directed to the next "black dot" that is open.  Typically, given the size of most passengers, you would be sitting with one person leaning back against the backrest, and the next person leaning forward to allow for the width of shoulders and life jacket, and so on around the boat.

 

Not sure about you, but personally, in the unlikely event of an evacuation, my preference is a liferaft, especially if the ship has an MES. Not too interested in using D/L rafts - if we can ever enjoy a beverage, I'll discuss my experience launching a fully loaded 25 D/L in 30+ kts winds.

 

The 106/109 RFD Marin Ark rafts and the LSA 100 rafts are so much more spacious than the lifeboats.

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Not sure about you, but personally, in the unlikely event of an evacuation, my preference is a liferaft, especially if the ship has an MES. Not too interested in using D/L rafts - if we can ever enjoy a beverage, I'll discuss my experience launching a fully loaded 25 D/L in 30+ kts winds.

 

The 106/109 RFD Marin Ark rafts and the LSA 100 rafts are so much more spacious than the lifeboats.

Haven't used an MES, and haven't been in a lifeboat in weather.  My one experience in a raft at sea was many, many years ago, when I took a "survival course" (as they were called then) in order to work offshore oil rigs in the Canadian Maritimes, in March.  It was a week long course, and the "final exam" was spending an entire afternoon working on rescue techniques and such 30 miles offshore Halifax.  This included launching a raft (from a fishing launch), getting into the water, boarding the raft, and then spending 2 hours in it, mainly to show how long 2 hours in a liferaft would feel.  Seas were running 5-6 feet, we had 8-10 men in a 25 man raft, two sea anchors deployed, and we were still drifting so fast that the exercise was almost terminated as we were coming close to the Canadian Forces gunnery range.  Anyway, never been so sick in my life as sitting in that raft in 6 foot seas.

[MBP&O2/O]

..... some companies would charge... and add an 18% service charge [emoji23]

[GrJ Berkshire]

I have always worried that the muster drill done in dock, does not replicate conditions in an emergency. How many passengers could walk 10 flights of stairs on a pitching ship or at an angle in the dark. Many people are barely mobile and would struggle without the lifts changing decks, loading on tenders, those with walking aids...............mobility scooters..... how will they cope?

[d9704011]

6 minutes ago, GrJ Berkshire said:

does not replicate conditions in an emergency.

Purpose of muster drill is to familiarize passengers with location they are to proceed to in an event of an emergency (and provide some basic emergency information).  Absolutely no intention to replicate the emergency.

[ontheweb]

12 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

The members of my Middle School Team always appreciated those parents/guardians that chose to appear for the conferences.  My Team instituted in my School the concept of student-led conferences with their parents and their teachers in attendance.  The students had to explain to us and produce their work that showed why they had met the expectations expected of them.  And, why they had not.  This concept led to an academic improvement for many of the students of our Team.  Even those students whose parents never made an appearance, those students had to present a portfolio to present.  It became obvious to even the student whose parents did not attend a conference that "something was amiss" if their portfolio was rather different to those of their peers.  

 

Did such a technique work for all of those students who were reluctant participants in their education?  Certainly not.  But, I believe that it made some difference for some students.  

That sounds great, thank you for your diligence in trying to help your students.

 

My favorite story about attending a parent teacher conference. My son in middle school had my all time favorite teacher 30 years after I did. The line to see her was always very long, but we finally got there just before the conferences were supposed to be over. I sat down and tried to run off the 30 prepositions she had taught us. (Obviously she was an English teacher). I managed 28 of the 30. (I don' t think losing one preposition for every 15 years is too bad.) She then told me the 2 I missed, and then said "No wonder your son always has this look on his face like I know something you do not.". 

 

BTW, she was my all time favorite teacher because from her I learned to love to read, Instead of assigning books to be read, she gave us lists, 7th grade books counting 1 point up to 12th grade books counting 6 points. After claiming to read a book, she would give oral questions as a test to make sure you really read the book.

[chengkp75]

40 minutes ago, GrJ Berkshire said:

I have always worried that the muster drill done in dock, does not replicate conditions in an emergency. How many passengers could walk 10 flights of stairs on a pitching ship or at an angle in the dark. Many people are barely mobile and would struggle without the lifts changing decks, loading on tenders, those with walking aids...............mobility scooters..... how will they cope?

There will almost never be complete dark, as cruise ships are required to have three separate power supplies for lighting:  normal lighting powered by the ship's generators, emergency lighting powered by the emergency generator, and battery lighting.  There are crew assigned to a "special needs" team who are tasked with finding and assisting known passengers with disabilities, and getting them to the muster stations.  There are also typically over a hundred crew whose duty is "assist as directed", which means they are mustered in one location, and on call for duties as needed, such as being called to a deck to assist the normal evacuation team with anyone who cannot get to the muster station on their own.  Further, the elevators are placed in "firefighter" mode, meaning that it can only be operated from within the car, and by key, and there are crew stationed at the elevators to call for them and assist disabled passengers into the elevators for use by crew to get them to the embarkation deck.  Much thought over decades has been given to crowd and crisis management, and much of actual responses in emergencies have been entered into computer models, and crew duties, muster station locations, etc, have been modeled using the paradigms from actual emergency responses.

[MBP&O2/O]

You don't get to pick and choose your seat in a lifeboat.  They are loaded from bow and stern to the middle (where the doors are), and evenly port and starboard, and you are directed to shuffle together as tight as possible as you are directed to the next "black dot" that is open.  Typically, given the size of most passengers, you would be sitting with one person leaning back against the backrest, and the next person leaning forward to allow for the width of shoulders and life jacket, and so on around the boat.

The boat we ended up in held, if memory serves me correctly, circa 46 pax in total. It was an ‘open boat’ so everyone was exposed to the elements ... no protection, so when we shipped an extra large greenie we ended up with zero freeboard ... [emoji35]
The point being there was myself, a couple of junior engineers, non essential crew and two wives. All were wearing the bulky, old style (kapok?) life jacket and there was barely room to move. This with a total of 23 persons. I often thought what it would have been like fully laden.
The course at St. Katharine Dock didn’t offer this scenario ..[emoji57]

[chengkp75]

23 minutes ago, MBP&O2/O said:

The boat we ended up in held, if memory serves me correctly, circa 46 pax in total. It was an ‘open boat’ so everyone was exposed to the elements ... no protection, so when we shipped an extra large greenie we ended up with zero freeboard ...
The point being there was myself, a couple of junior engineers, non essential crew and two wives. All were wearing the bulky, old style (kapok?) life jacket and there was barely room to move. This with a total of 23 persons. I often thought what it would have been like fully laden.
The course at St. Katharine Dock didn’t offer this scenario ..
 

We did an exercise one time when I was working offshore oil.  We decided to see if we could reach capacity (64) in a totally enclosed boat using average oil field workers in their immersion suits.  We got 56.

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, d9704011 said:

Purpose of muster drill is to familiarize passengers with location they are to proceed to in an event of an emergency (and provide some basic emergency information).  Absolutely no intention to replicate the emergency.

You are forgetting one crucial element - the muster (which is why the drill is so named).

It is important in a drill to ensure that all hands are informed - and in an actual emergency that all hands are being taken care of - not left behind, possibly wandering in some dark corridors.  Once the muster has taken place it will be known whether or not  crew have to search for no-shows.

[Joebucks]

3 hours ago, d9704011 said:

Purpose of muster drill is to familiarize passengers with location they are to proceed to in an event of an emergency (and provide some basic emergency information).  Absolutely no intention to replicate the emergency.

 

If that was the case, you wouldn't have to stand there for a DRILL after you've seen the area

[Heidi13]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Haven't used an MES, and haven't been in a lifeboat in weather.  My one experience in a raft at sea was many, many years ago, when I took a "survival course" (as they were called then) in order to work offshore oil rigs in the Canadian Maritimes, in March.  It was a week long course, and the "final exam" was spending an entire afternoon working on rescue techniques and such 30 miles offshore Halifax.  This included launching a raft (from a fishing launch), getting into the water, boarding the raft, and then spending 2 hours in it, mainly to show how long 2 hours in a liferaft would feel.  Seas were running 5-6 feet, we had 8-10 men in a 25 man raft, two sea anchors deployed, and we were still drifting so fast that the exercise was almost terminated as we were coming close to the Canadian Forces gunnery range.  Anyway, never been so sick in my life as sitting in that raft in 6 foot seas.

 

Affirmative, in UK it was also called "Survival Course", but we did the course at the local pool. We had a 25-man L/R in the deep end, with a bunch of kids playing at the other end. Once we were all in the raft and it was closed up, it was really uncomfortable. After experiencing the raft in a pool, I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would be in 5-6 ft seas.

 

We did do a 25 D/L demo for Transport Canada in 30 kt winds, but nobody was in the raft, as we loaded it with water bladders. It was interesting watching the rescue boats tow it the couple of miles to shore. I recall hearing one of the officers describing it as a cork on water.

 

However, the large MES rafts, especially the RFD ones (they resemble log houses) are much more comfortable.

 

Never had a lifeboat in the open ocean, but have had a couple of interesting returns to the ship when a squall hit while tendering. 

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

After experiencing the raft in a pool, I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would be in 5-6 ft seas.

For those of us old enough to remember what a water bed was, and the original water beds that were just large bags of water, riding a raft in 6 foot seas was like laying on one of those beds, with an elephant tap dancing on it.

[GUT2407]

On 8/1/2020 at 7:53 PM, sanger727 said:

I have never been to a muster where you put your life jacket it on and as far as I know there aren’t usually life jackets in the cabin. I’ve been under the impression that they give those to you at your muster station. But, then again, since they don’t give you life jackets in muster drills I don’t really know. That element hasn’t been included in any muster drill I’ve been to so it’s not lost in the new muster. 

My early cruise you always put it on, was surprised how many people would also blow than many whistle that who knows how many before them had deposited saliva in.

 

never been on a cruise that hasn’t had life jackets in the cabin.

[rkacruiser]

17 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

However she was still considered a crew member, with emergency duties and IPM (in port manning).

 

What does "in port manning" mean?

[rkacruiser]

16 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Not sure about you, but personally, in the unlikely event of an evacuation, my preference is a liferaft, especially if the ship has an MES. Not too interested in using D/L rafts - if we can ever enjoy a beverage, I'll discuss my experience launching a fully loaded 25 D/L in 30+ kts winds.

 

The 106/109 RFD Marin Ark rafts and the LSA 100 rafts are so much more spacious than the lifeboats.

 

MES?  D/L rafts?  106/109 RFD Marin Ark rafts? LSA 100 rafts?  Your comment of "if we can ever enjoy a beverage.."?  I'd appreciate some definitions and explanations, if you care to do so.  Thank you!

[rkacruiser]

9 hours ago, GrJ Berkshire said:

I have always worried that the muster drill done in dock, does not replicate conditions in an emergency. How many passengers could walk 10 flights of stairs on a pitching ship or at an angle in the dark. Many people are barely mobile and would struggle without the lifts changing decks, loading on tenders, those with walking aids...............mobility scooters..... how will they cope?

 

As I become less easily mobile as I age, I also have this concern.  In an emergency, I could still get myself to my Muster Station, but it would not be as easy as it once was.

 

The last cruise I took with a friend/former colleague who was in her late 80's, she needed a scooter to get around the ship and to get off the ship to do any port visiting.  She could walk, slowly, with the aid of a cane.  But, I was concerned about what could happen in an emergency.  (We left our stateroom, walking slowly and using an elevator, to get to our Muster Station well before we were supposed to do so.  Thankfully, no one told us to "return to your stateroom and await instructions".  

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

What does "in port manning" mean?

In port manning means crew who are restricted to ship due to their emergency duty station.  Typically, one or two fire teams (5-6 crew each) and one medical team (crew assigned as stretcher bearers) are restricted during port stays, on a rotating basis (since there may be 6 fire teams, each team is restricted every third port call).

2 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

MES?  D/L rafts?  106/109 RFD Marin Ark rafts? LSA 100 rafts?  Your comment of "if we can ever enjoy a beverage.."?  I'd appreciate some definitions and explanations, if you care to do so.  Thank you!

MES:  Marine Evacuation System.  A google will show you what it is.  It is a system where 3-6 life rafts are deployed all at once, with a fabric chute leading down to one raft.  The people jump into the chute, fall down it into the raft at the bottom, and then are guided to board the other rafts, which are moved away when full.  It allows 500-600 people to evacuate within the mandated 30 minutes.

 

D/L rafts:  Davit launched rafts.  Most rafts on cruise ships are this type.  The raft is connected to a "crane", picked up from storage, and swung over the side and lowered to embarkation deck.  Raft is inflated, crew board, and then the crane lowers the raft to the water, where it is released.  Hook hoisted back up, and procedure repeated for the 6-8 rafts at each "crane" (davit).

 

RFD and LSA are raft manufacturers, the 106/109 and 100 are capacity, and Marin Ark is a designation for a type of MES.

 

Andy is hoping to meet me on a cruise to hoist a few and swap sea stories.

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

MES:  Marine Evacuation System. 

 

I appreciate your response to my questions.  Regarding MES, I am familiar with this system and have read the "directions" posted on the exterior of those systems that I have been able to do.  To jump into a chute and expect to land into a raft must be a bit of a screw-up of courage for a guest or a crew member that must do so.

 

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Davit launched rafts

 

During a VOV cruise on the Rotterdam, a display of this was demonstrated in the mid-ship's pool involving Cadets and, maybe, 3rd Officers.  The canister was in the pool, then inflated, and the Officers proceeded to demonstrate how the life raft could be used.  Including, if the raft was upside down and how that they would remedy that.  (A Second Officer narrated the entire program.)  

 

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Andy is hoping to meet me on a cruise to hoist a few and swap sea stories.

 

I would truly love to be the "fly on the wall" if that would happen!

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I appreciate your response to my questions.  Regarding MES, I am familiar with this system and have read the "directions" posted on the exterior of those systems that I have been able to do.  To jump into a chute and expect to land into a raft must be a bit of a screw-up of courage for a guest or a crew member that must do so.

 

 

During a VOV cruise on the Rotterdam, a display of this was demonstrated in the mid-ship's pool involving Cadets and, maybe, 3rd Officers.  The canister was in the pool, then inflated, and the Officers proceeded to demonstrate how the life raft could be used.  Including, if the raft was upside down and how that they would remedy that.  (A Second Officer narrated the entire program.)  

 

 

I would truly love to be the "fly on the wall" if that would happen!

There are baffles in the chute to slow you down, but the crew needs a lot of training to get people moved out from under it quickly.

 

All rafts can be tossed over the side, and inflated in the water if necessary, but that requires the people to get into the water first, so davit launched rafts are better.  That canister is what is hooked to the davit wire, and at the deck, the line is pulled and the canister pops and inflates the raft.  As a final safety, the straps that hold the raft canisters to the ship have a hydrostatic release, which will cut the strap when the water pressure gets to a given point as the ship sinks, and the rafts will float free, inflating when their rope pulls out enough, so that virtually everything that can be used will be available.

 

I try to keep a low profile when cruising, so I don't get calls in the middle of the night to fix someone's toilet.

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I appreciate your response to my questions.  Regarding MES, I am familiar with this system and have read the "directions" posted on the exterior of those systems that I have been able to do.  To jump into a chute and expect to land into a raft must be a bit of a screw-up of courage for a guest or a crew member that must do so.

 

Each of the liferaft manufacturers have a different technology for their respective Marine Emergency Systems

 

• DBC (Survitec Group) had a single track & double track vertical slide. It consisted of internal baffles that supposedly slowed down the descent. The bottom of the slide had a centenary, so you slid out onto a platform. Must admit I never felt baffles during any descent. Some slender people exited fairly quickly. This system was a challenge for the crew, as additional rafts had to be dropped, inflated and secured to the platform. Fortunately, we never had to prove attaining the system capacity, as it would be close, with a higher risk of injury over other systems. These systems were only fitted to a few cruise ships - Star Cruises, I believe.
• RFD Marin-Ark (Survitec Group) - this is a large, heavy integrated system comprising 2 vertical chutes and 4 rafts. Minimal prep by the crew is required before commencing the evacuation. The chute consists of a series of segments, each of which is shaped like a funnel. Each segment is rotated 90 degrees from the one above, so you actually rotate 360 every 4 segments. The funnels work well, as I have stopped a couple of times about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down. If you stop, you move your feet around and the descent continues. You descend into the inner raft, with the first 109 persons being sent to the outer rafts. Once the rafts are full, the chute is disconnected and the lines, with the rafts towed away. I note that during a crew drill in Dover, a shore employee unfortunately lost her life during a descent. Somehow she ended up in a pike position, but after many, many tests that situation has never been replicated. The new Marin Arks are now a spiral slide inside a vertical tube. I have seen these systems on Princess ships and have attended deployments on Celebrity and I believe RCI ships.
• Liferaft Systems Australia (LSA) - This is an inflatable double track slide that works with 4 separate 100 person rafts. The slide inflates with a single raft, with additional rafts stowed up on deck. Little bit of work for the crew launching the additional rafts. You can control your descent speed on the slide. Not aware of these systems on any cruise ships, mostly ferries and warships, with the most notable being UK's 2 new carriers.

 

I suspect the system you saw on the ship was most likely one of the Marin Arks, which has a sliding door on the inboard side. Once opened, it provides access to a release mechanism and also a manual hydraulic pump handle, as a back up. An accumulator pushes the platform over the ship's side and the system drops with a rather large splash and starts inflating.

 

Before working on any MES equipped ship, our crew had to attend a specific training course for that system, which included a descent. Transport Canada also required us to deploy 1 system per ship per year, so we always have crews attending these deployments. Each crew member was provided  the opportunity to make additional descents, which many of them did. I attended each of our deployments as owner's rep with Flag/Class Surveyors and OEM Reps. I probably attended about a dozen deployments annually.

 

The Princess ships have a dummy system installed in the Focsle for crew training.

 

[sanger727]

12 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

My early cruise you always put it on, was surprised how many people would also blow than many whistle that who knows how many before them had deposited saliva in.

 

never been on a cruise that hasn’t had life jackets in the cabin.

I really don’t know if there are life jackets in the cabins I’ve been in. But I’m fairly certain that the instructions I’ve received at muster drills are to report directly to your station and not to return to your cabin to get a life jacket. I took that to mean that there were enough life jackets at the muster station for everyone. Are there also life jackets in the room? Not sure. 

[d9704011]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

I really don’t know if there are life jackets in the cabins I’ve been in. But I’m fairly certain that the instructions I’ve received at muster drills are to report directly to your station and not to return to your cabin to get a life jacket. I took that to mean that there were enough life jackets at the muster station for everyone. Are there also life jackets in the room? Not sure. 

Life jackets in cabins?  Depends on the ship.  Rest assured though, there are plenty of others stored away near the boats/rafts.  If you’re reasonably able to get to your cabin prior to reporting to the muster station you shpuld do so to get a hat, sweater or coat, medications.  Not pack a bag or anything, just a few items for protection and health care.

[MBP&O2/O]

The boat we ended up in held, if memory serves me correctly, circa 46 pax in total. It was an ‘open boat’ so everyone was exposed to the elements ... no protection, so when we shipped an extra large greenie we ended up with zero freeboard ... [emoji35]
The point being there was myself, a couple of junior engineers, non essential crew and two wives. All were wearing the bulky, old style (kapok?) life jacket and there was barely room to move. This with a total of 23 persons. I often thought what it would have been like fully laden.
The course at St. Katharine Dock didn’t offer this scenario ..[emoji57]

I knew I had a photo hidden away somewhere. The main deck of the ship is bottom right ... partial submerged [emoji848]

[Luckiestmanonearth]

On 8/22/2020 at 7:38 AM, d9704011 said:

Purpose of muster drill is to familiarize passengers with location they are to proceed to in an event of an emergency (and provide some basic emergency information).  Absolutely no intention to replicate the emergency.

 

Agree
Meaning of Muster “gather or bring together”