Rethinking Muster Drills

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Just like they all follow the existing rules.

Oh, they believe that they do.  But they are the ones who decide what a “rule” is. Obviously, any effort to deny their “rights” is not a “rule” they need to obey.

[Heidi13]

16 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

While RCI has offered the software to other lines, I'd be interested whether all class societies have approved this (or even the IMO for permanent usage), since it was "rolled out" on a small line with "optional" participation.  Will be interesting to see how this works out on the first cruises.

 

Yes, it will be very interesting to see how it works in practice. Hopefully at some point during the process they at least do sound the GES, so that all pax know what it sounds like. Too many newbies still expect to hear bells ringing.

 

Can only hope we don't experience another Costa Concordia type incident.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Yes, it will be very interesting to see how it works in practice. Hopefully at some point during the process they at least do sound the GES, so that all pax know what it sounds like. Too many newbies still expect to hear bells ringing.

 

Can only hope we don't experience another Costa Concordia type incident.

I'm hoping that class send surveyors onboard to see these in actual practice to see whether they actually meet the safety requirements, and whether they work as intended, or lead to multiple, repetitive delayed sailings, and whether the ship actually conforms to having everyone checked off prior to sailing. 

[ed01106]

On 7/25/2020 at 12:00 PM, chengkp75 said:

Yep, unless they give out colored party hats to designate those who have completed the drill, how will the crew know which of the 20 people lining the bar have complied and which have not, until they start doing a person by person card swipe, on a bunch of moving targets.

Very simple solution that each cruise line will need to do exactly once.  

 

Let's say muster drill needs to be completed by 4 pm.  At 4:15 you close the muster station.  You send crew members to pack up the stateroom of every noncompliant passenger.  You use purchase card transactions to track everyone down and escort them off the ship.  On the first cruise this may take a few hours. It won't be an issue on subsequent cruises. 

[chengkp75]

35 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

Very simple solution that each cruise line will need to do exactly once.  

 

Let's say muster drill needs to be completed by 4 pm.  At 4:15 you close the muster station.  You send crew members to pack up the stateroom of every noncompliant passenger.  You use purchase card transactions to track everyone down and escort them off the ship.  On the first cruise this may take a few hours. It won't be an issue on subsequent cruises. 

And if you believe the cruise lines will do this, I've got some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you.

[Heidi13]

12 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I'm hoping that class send surveyors onboard to see these in actual practice to see whether they actually meet the safety requirements, and whether they work as intended, or lead to multiple, repetitive delayed sailings, and whether the ship actually conforms to having everyone checked off prior to sailing. 

 

With something this critical I would hope all IACS members were on board with approving and that they will have Surveyors monitoring effectiveness and compliance.

 

However, my experience with Class Surveyors from one of the majors wasn't great with drills and the deck inspections, once we fully devolved from Flag to Class. They were OK with the hull & machinery, but we had to walk them through the Bridge and safety equipment side of the inspection. The LR Surveyors were great, but the other Class I dealt with, not so much.

 

Retirements of senior officers/surveyors also doesn't help, as before I retired, the surveyors were getting younger every year.

[chengkp75]

Yep, Andy, surveyors are getting younger, USCG inspectors have never been to sea or operated machinery.  And, while the USCG will have designated "engine" and "deck" inspectors, you are right that class surveyors tend towards one discipline or the other, and don't show much knowledge of the "other".

[sanger727]

18 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Yes, it will be very interesting to see how it works in practice. Hopefully at some point during the process they at least do sound the GES, so that all pax know what it sounds like. Too many newbies still expect to hear bells ringing.

 

Can only hope we don't experience another Costa Concordia type incident.

this why I think the muster drill has less effect for layman cruises than professional seamen realize. No idea what you are talking about and I’ve cruises several times and been to several musters.  If they want me to go to a muster station that sure as heck better just make an announcement to go to muster stations. If there was something specific they played during the muster drill that I was supposed to associate as a signal, that didn’t work. They also will hopefully put the signs back up telling me where my station is because after day 2, I usually had forgotten. 
 

my first muster was on carnival and out on deck by the lifeboats, which made some sense. My next few muster drills were in the ships theater and if I’m being honest, leaving the first one or two of those I did not realize that that’s where I was actually supposed to go in an emergency. I also couldn’t have told you when and where I was going to get a life jacket. The last time this topic came up I was told that there’s a lot of science showing the muster drills work. Maybe, I don’t know. But as a layman occasional cruiser, my impression for me was that it had very little value and if they want me to do something in an emergency that are still going to have to make announcements telling me exactly what to do. I’m not dim witted; I just feel like they are designed by people who already know what a muster looks like and aren’t taking into account that a majority of cruisers don’t.

I personally learn by doing, not by being told. I’ve watched the airplane safety videos enough times that I could probably recite one, but until I open an emergency exit door for myself and find my life jacket and put it on, I would tell you that I don’t know how to do those things. For me to feel like I know ‘how to muster’ we need to play an alarm randomly and surprise me, go to stations, hand out life jackets, etc. those things don’t happen at muster drills so I don’t leave feeling Confident I would know what to do in an emergency.

Edited July 27, 2020 by sanger727

[chengkp75]

What Andy is referring to is the GES (General Alarm System), where the signal for passenger muster is "more than six short blasts on the ship's whistle and GES, followed by one prolonged blast".  I would hope that during the muster drills you have attended, that this signal was given throughout the ship, and that this signal was followed by an announcement explaining what that signal meant, and for passengers to report to their muster stations.  As far as information given at muster drills, most of it is either cruise line policy announcements, or superfluous statements.  The only thing passengers need to know is where their muster station is, and "show up and shut up".

 

In an actual emergency, a single push of a button on the bridge will activate the alarm signal I described above, which is the first action the Command Team on the bridge will take, and then they can get to the PA microphone and make the announcement.  The signal is designed to wake the dead.

 

With the new "drill" format, there is no fixed time to sound this signal, so when it is done, how it is explained to the passengers, whether experienced cruisers suddenly think it is an actual emergency, or whatever, is up in the air, and this can lead to a lot of confusion in an actual emergency.  I am frankly amazed that this has apparently been approved for general use, and not just as a pandemic mediation measure, as I think this will degrade the entire drill process.

[Luckiestmanonearth]

Seems like most people believe that no one takes the muster drill seriously.

 

What if they didn’t open the bars until everyone finished their muster training and checked in at their muster station.

 

Do you think that would be a motivator ?

[chengkp75]

20 minutes ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

Seems like most people believe that no one takes the muster drill seriously.

 

What if they didn’t open the bars until everyone finished their muster training and checked in at their muster station.

 

Do you think that would be a motivator ?

Given that the objectives when rolling out "Muster 2.0" is to "allows guests to enjoy more of their vacation with no interruption",  "allow the ship to operate without pause ", "increase health, safety and guest satisfaction simultaneously" and "what’s most convenient for our guests", interrupting the bar service would be countering those repeated objectives.

[ed01106]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Given that the objectives when rolling out "Muster 2.0" is to "allows guests to enjoy more of their vacation with no interruption",  "allow the ship to operate without pause ", "increase health, safety and guest satisfaction simultaneously" and "what’s most convenient for our guests", interrupting the bar service would be countering those repeated objectives.

That absolutely should NOT be the goals of a muster drill.  Any cruise line whose number one goal for a muster drill is not “Prepare the passengers and crew to safely evacuate the ship in an emergency “ should be banned. from operating.  All other goals must be secondary to safety.

[sanger727]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

What Andy is referring to is the GES (General Alarm System), where the signal for passenger muster is "more than six short blasts on the ship's whistle and GES, followed by one prolonged blast".  I would hope that during the muster drills you have attended, that this signal was given throughout the ship, and that this signal was followed by an announcement explaining what that signal meant, and for passengers to report to their muster stations.  As far as information given at muster drills, most of it is either cruise line policy announcements, or superfluous statements.  The only thing passengers need to know is where their muster station is, and "show up and shut up".

 

In an actual emergency, a single push of a button on the bridge will activate the alarm signal I described above, which is the first action the Command Team on the bridge will take, and then they can get to the PA microphone and make the announcement.  The signal is designed to wake the dead.

 

but why is it necessary for passengers to recognize that signal? As I said, I’ve gone to several muster drills and I still wouldn’t recognize that signal. Signals are great for crew and if the purpose is to ‘wake the dead’. But when communicating to people with zero experience in a real life emergency; it is best to use simple commands in plain English. ‘All passengers report to your muster station’ played over the PA would be a much more effective communicator than expecting passengers to realize that those ship whistle signal means they should go to their muster station.

[ATC cruiser]

41 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

but why is it necessary for passengers to recognize that signal? As I said, I’ve gone to several muster drills and I still wouldn’t recognize that signal. Signals are great for crew and if the purpose is to ‘wake the dead’. But when communicating to people with zero experience in a real life emergency; it is best to use simple commands in plain English. ‘All passengers report to your muster station’ played over the PA would be a much more effective communicator than expecting passengers to realize that those ship whistle signal means they should go to their muster station.

Not everyone, including Americans, understand plain English.

[ed01106]

47 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

but why is it necessary for passengers to recognize that signal? As I said, I’ve gone to several muster drills and I still wouldn’t recognize that signal. Signals are great for crew and if the purpose is to ‘wake the dead’. But when communicating to people with zero experience in a real life emergency; it is best to use simple commands in plain English. ‘All passengers report to your muster station’ played over the PA would be a much more effective communicator than expecting passengers to realize that those ship whistle signal means they should go to their muster station.

Along with not everyone know English as previously stated.  The PA system is not always clear many times in my stateroom I hear enough to know an announcement was made but not what was said.  As they say in the army "train as you fight"  In schools they signal the beginning of a fire drill or shooter drill by sounding the appropriate alarm.  That way everyone knows what each sound means.  If everyone doesn't know the difference between the fire alarm and active shooter, kids might die - from exposing themselves to shooter or hiding in a closet during a fire.

[PromenadeDeckWriter]

And not everyone has access to sound. On one ship the announcement was made but the flashing light installed in the cabin didnt go off (Two Deaf passengers in the cabin including myself). How did I know something was up? I was already awake and was expecting a room delivery and had gone to the door to check and saw the green running lights on. So having options works. Some will respond to signals, others to announcements. Some will have to be waken up to be notified (me walking up my cabin mate who told me to sod off. So....)

 

That's why I wore a muster station bracelet that children wear, because I didnt trust my fellow passengers to tell me. The crew on the other hand noticed and every time a signal went off at least two would rush up to me and tell me what's going on. 

 

Still in favor of live muster station as someone who is visual and hands on, need the tactile experience to instill the info. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by PromenadeDeckWriter

[chengkp75]

58 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

but why is it necessary for passengers to recognize that signal? As I said, I’ve gone to several muster drills and I still wouldn’t recognize that signal. Signals are great for crew and if the purpose is to ‘wake the dead’. But when communicating to people with zero experience in a real life emergency; it is best to use simple commands in plain English. ‘All passengers report to your muster station’ played over the PA would be a much more effective communicator than expecting passengers to realize that those ship whistle signal means they should go to their muster station.

Do they not sound that signal during the passenger muster drill?  What lines?  And, the signal should be accompanied by the announcement "that is the signal for passenger muster, all passengers please report to their muster stations".  That gets the connection between the signal and the muster planted in your mind.  After the signal, then announcements can be made for specific circumstances, and additional guidance.  If you were sound asleep in the middle of the night, and you heard the 7 short and one long blast out in your passageway, would it be better to wait for the announcement, or react immediately.  The PA system is also selective as to where announcements are heard, and there is an "emergency" switch that will broadcast to all speakers and override any volume controls, but this requires human intervention, and we all know about human nature.

 

Besides, it is a statutory requirement to sound the signal during the drill.

 

The necessity of sounding the GES for an emergency is why the cruise lines use the "code" messages, since many emergencies require action by the crew, but do not rise to the level where the passengers need to be mustered.  And, to the crew, that signal is not "passenger muster", or "abandon ship" (as many believe), that is the signal for "fire and general emergency", which sends additional crew to emergency stations over what has already been allocated by the "code" message.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

but why is it necessary for passengers to recognize that signal? As I said, I’ve gone to several muster drills and I still wouldn’t recognize that signal. Signals are great for crew and if the purpose is to ‘wake the dead’. But when communicating to people with zero experience in a real life emergency; it is best to use simple commands in plain English. ‘All passengers report to your muster station’ played over the PA would be a much more effective communicator than expecting passengers to realize that those ship whistle signal means they should go to their muster station.

Fortunately, a sufficient percentage of passengers do pay attention - and have rudimentary memory function - for a non-language-specific signal to be worth explaining.

[sanger727]

2 hours ago, ATC cruiser said:

Not everyone, including Americans, understand plain English.

yes! Exactly! Not everyone is fluent in English on a cruise. Do they hold musters in all possible languages? I imagine a video can be translated to just about any language and the information can be communicated clearly. Much better than someone struggling to understand a muster briefing and hoping the message go through in an emergency.

 

if an American doesn’t understand plain English they didn’t understand the muster information anyway so they signal will be meaningless no matter what.

Edited July 27, 2020 by sanger727

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Fortunately, a sufficient percentage of passengers do pay attention - and have rudimentary memory function - for a non-language-specific signal to be worth explaining.

I don’t think you have dealt with many people in an emergency. I have. They WILL need clear instructions. Simply saying, oh, they should know what that signL meant and where to go based on a 15 minute safety drill on day one isn’t sufficient.

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Do they not sound that signal during the passenger muster drill?  What lines?  And, the signal should be accompanied by the announcement "that is the signal for passenger muster, all passengers please report to their muster stations".  That gets the connection between the signal and the muster planted in your mind.  After the signal, then announcements can be made for specific circumstances, and additional guidance.  If you were sound asleep in the middle of the night, and you heard the 7 short and one long blast out in your passageway, would it be better to wait for the announcement, or react immediately.  The PA system is also selective as to where announcements are heard, and there is an "emergency" switch that will broadcast to all speakers and override any volume controls, but this requires human intervention, and we all know about human nature.

 

Besides, it is a statutory requirement to sound the signal during the drill.

 

The necessity of sounding the GES for an emergency is why the cruise lines use the "code" messages, since many emergencies require action by the crew, but do not rise to the level where the passengers need to be mustered.  And, to the crew, that signal is not "passenger muster", or "abandon ship" (as many believe), that is the signal for "fire and general emergency", which sends additional crew to emergency stations over what has already been allocated by the "code" message.

I’m not suggesting they not sound the alarm. If this safety briefing is done via video they can easily play it and have the video translated to many different languages so non English speakers will be able to get clear instructions also. I suspect that in the long run this will increase, not decrease understanding. 
 

I agree that there are all kinds of audio signals played on the ship at all different points, primarily for the crew. We were on a ship where some code blades over the loud speakers. We stood there for a minute, wondering if that should mean anything to us, and went about our day deciding thAt if they wanted us to go to muster they would tell us. It is frankly unreasonable to expect thousands of people with no professional or long term ship experience to be ready to muster in an emergency based on a ships whistle with ZERO instructions. I have a hard time imagining that that is how it will really occur. The ships whistle will wake you up and maybe a PA announcement will play (hopefully) and I would expect there to be crew somewhere in the hallways telling you to muster. 
 

what I’ve said before and am sticking by is that I don’t think the muster drills, as they have been done, communicate as much information and learning to the passengers as professionals think they do.  I’m not saying they shouldn’t be done in some capacity, but doing it differently won’t necessarily result in a less valuable drill. It could result in a more valuable drill.

 

I promise that I’m not an idiot. But I have left a muster drill not knowing where to muster before. Because no one said it, because they assumed I knew. That’s the problem, assuming a new cruiser knows what you know. My first muster was on deck by lifeboats which made a lot of sense. My second muster was in the theater to watch a safety video. Going to the theater to watch a safety video makes sense. Going to the theater when you need to go to lifeboats does not. I did not realize that was where I actually needed to go. Miscommunication and misunderstandings are occurring already. This will not add to that.

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I personally learn by doing, not by being told. I’ve watched the airplane safety videos enough times that I could probably recite one, but until I open an emergency exit door for myself and find my life jacket and put it on, I would tell you that I don’t know how to do those things. For me to feel like I know ‘how to muster’ we need to play an alarm randomly and surprise me, go to stations, hand out life jackets, etc. those things don’t happen at muster drills so I don’t leave feeling Confident I would know what to do in an emergency.

 

Learning by doing, is how most adults retain most learning and is why existing muster drills are conducted in the current format. They are intended to prepare pax to recognise one of many signals/codes you may hear and go to your Assembly Station.

 

On hearing that signal, you go to your assigned Assembly Station and practice donning a lifejacket. As the Chief mentioned, most of the dialogue at the Assembly Station is about cruise line policies. This is basic concept of training, as a previous poster mentioned in the army, you train as you fight. In the marine world we want you to go to the Assembly Station, on hearing the General Emergency Signal (GES), which is at least 7 short (1 second duration) followed by a prolonged ( 4 to 6 secs duration) bell/tone on the ship's alarm system. It can also be sounded on the whistle.

 

After attending your Assembly Station, if by day 2 you have forgotten where it is, I can only assume you have a minimal regard for your personal safety. Having just spent 100 days on a ship, I knew not only the location of our Assembly Station, but also to which zone within the Assembly Station we would most likely be assigned, during the entire voyage. However, in hotels I also note the location of emergency exits and routes to them.

 

Prior to a drill, you most likely received warnings from the Bridge (we did 2 warnings) on the P/A system that you will shortly be hearing the GES. After it was sounded, the Bridge often explains the signal just heard was the GES, which is the only signal pax need to identify and act accordingly. Having taken a number of cruises, if you are not aware of the GES, this is proof of why we use unambiguous signals, not the P/A system.

 

The only verbal emergency signal is, "Abandon Ship" which is only issued by the Master. In most situations, Abandon Ship is only issued after pax are mustered at the Assembly Stations. During the intervening period between GES & Abandon Ship, the Assembly Station crew would provide instructions on the process of moving pax to the Survival Craft. Since very few incidents progress to abandoning, this information is superfluous during a Muster Drill and is highly contingent on the actual emergency - which Survival Craft are available, safe routes, etc.

[sanger727]

19 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Learning by doing, is how most adults retain most learning and is why existing muster drills are conducted in the current format. They are intended to prepare pax to recognise one of many signals/codes you may hear and go to your Assembly Station.

 

On hearing that signal, you go to your assigned Assembly Station and practice donning a lifejacket. As the Chief mentioned, most of the dialogue at the Assembly Station is about cruise line policies. This is basic concept of training, as a previous poster mentioned in the army, you train as you fight. In the marine world we want you to go to the Assembly Station, on hearing the General Emergency Signal (GES), which is at least 7 short (1 second duration) followed by a prolonged ( 4 to 6 secs duration) bell/tone on the ship's alarm system. It can also be sounded on the whistle.

 

After attending your Assembly Station, if by day 2 you have forgotten where it is, I can only assume you have a minimal regard for your personal safety. Having just spent 100 days on a ship, I knew not only the location of our Assembly Station, but also to which zone within the Assembly Station we would most likely be assigned, during the entire voyage. However, in hotels I also note the location of emergency exits and routes to them.

 

Prior to a drill, you most likely received warnings from the Bridge (we did 2 warnings) on the P/A system that you will shortly be hearing the GES. After it was sounded, the Bridge often explains the signal just heard was the GES, which is the only signal pax need to identify and act accordingly. Having taken a number of cruises, if you are not aware of the GES, this is proof of why we use unambiguous signals, not the P/A system.

 

The only verbal emergency signal is, "Abandon Ship" which is only issued by the Master. In most situations, Abandon Ship is only issued after pax are mustered at the Assembly Stations. During the intervening period between GES & Abandon Ship, the Assembly Station crew would provide instructions on the process of moving pax to the Survival Craft. Since very few incidents progress to abandoning, this information is superfluous during a Muster Drill and is highly contingent on the actual emergency - which Survival Craft are available, safe routes, etc.

And this is standard policy for a cruise ship? If so, you all are right. I don’t feel good about safety. There is no possible way thousands of people with zero training outside of a 15 minute safety drill when they are just trying to get acclimated to their vacation are going to be able to get themselves all to their stations with no instructions. Shoot, during the drill you can’t walk five feet without running into a crew member telling you to go to your station and helping you find it. 
 

people who cruise regularly on this site are often discussing doing things they tell you not to do. ‘I’m gonnna go to my cabin to collect my valuables’, ‘I’m going to take my kids from another room (with another muster station) to my muster station So they can be with me. But yes, these people are going to jump up in the middle of their vacation and suddenly do everything by the book while the crew runs off to let them fend for themselves...

Edited July 27, 2020 by sanger727

[Heidi13]

46 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

I don’t think you have dealt with many people in an emergency. I have. They WILL need clear instructions. Simply saying, oh, they should know what that signL meant and where to go based on a 15 minute safety drill on day one isn’t sufficient.

 

Having dealt with more than a couple of situations in 40 years at sea, I probably have a reasonable understanding of how people react, especially at sea. The Chief has similar experience. I have also run many simulations, as we fine tuned ship modifications for installing new Survival Craft.

 

Frankly, I don't see how the information provided could be any clearer. The back of the cabin door has an emergency poster explaining the GES, your Assembly Station and a diagram of the route from your cabin. Surely, you have read this on every ship.

 

Prior to the muster drill, the Bridge issue a couple of warning, with at least 1 explanation of the GES and it is the only signal of interest to pax. On hearing this signal, you go to your Assembly Station following crew directions. Crew members are assigned throughout the ship to guide pax via safe routes, as some stairwells and even entire zones could be shut down.

 

How much clearer can it be - hear 7 short + 1 long, go to Assembly Station. 

 

I have developed and written procedures for my last company, so am more than a little knowledgeable on the process, when a pax, I do not require additional information at the Assembly Station. If a situation develops, it will be provided in the Assembly Station.

[sanger727]

4 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Having dealt with more than a couple of situations in 40 years at sea, I probably have a reasonable understanding of how people react, especially at sea. The Chief has similar experience. I have also run many simulations, as we fine tuned ship modifications for installing new Survival Craft.

 

Frankly, I don't see how the information provided could be any clearer. The back of the cabin door has an emergency poster explaining the GES, your Assembly Station and a diagram of the route from your cabin. Surely, you have read this on every ship.

 

Prior to the muster drill, the Bridge issue a couple of warning, with at least 1 explanation of the GES and it is the only signal of interest to pax. On hearing this signal, you go to your Assembly Station following crew directions. Crew members are assigned throughout the ship to guide pax via safe routes, as some stairwells and even entire zones could be shut down.

 

How much clearer can it be - hear 7 short + 1 long, go to Assembly Station. 

 

I have developed and written procedures for my last company, so am more than a little knowledgeable on the process, when a pax, I do not require additional information at the Assembly Station. If a situation develops, it will be provided in the Assembly Station.

Right. So people will be getting instructions from the crew. That was my ONLY point. To suggest that you can blow the signal and expect people to get where they need to go without ANY additional direction won’t work. Crew will be in the hallways telling people who are confused to go to their muster stations...which means that I don’t HAVE to remember that 6 whistle blasts or whatever it was means to muster. Not going to be woken up out of bed and sit there counting - oh, that was only 4 - I can go back to bed. If you heard an alarm that sounds somewhat like what you heard in the safety information you will probably go out and find a crew member who will tell you what to do.

Edited July 27, 2020 by sanger727