Rethinking Muster Drills

[Heidi13]

5 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

And this is standard policy for a cruise ship? If so, you all are right. I don’t feel good about safety. There is no possible way thousands of people with zero training outside of a 15 minute safety drill when they are just trying to get acclimated to their vacation are going to be able to get themselves all to their stations with no instructions. Shoot, during the drill you can’t walk five feet without running into a crew member telling you to go to your station and helping you find it. 

 

Since fire is one of the prevalent emergencies experienced at sea and is best fought by containment, you may experience closed fire doors, even entire sections of multiple decks blocked off. While you may have a primary route from your cabin, or wherever you are on a ship to your Assembly Station, in an emergency you may require an alternate route, which may be through crew only spaces.

 

This is why numerous crew Stairway Guides are located throughout the ship guiding pax to their Assembly Stations via safe routes.

 

Suggest you read the safety poster on the back of your cabin door, as it includes a diagram showing the primary exit from the cabin.

[sanger727]

3 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Since fire is one of the prevalent emergencies experienced at sea and is best fought by containment, you may experience closed fire doors, even entire sections of multiple decks blocked off. While you may have a primary route from your cabin, or wherever you are on a ship to your Assembly Station, in an emergency you may require an alternate route, which may be through crew only spaces.

 

This is why numerous crew Stairway Guides are located throughout the ship guiding pax to their Assembly Stations via safe routes.

 

Suggest you read the safety poster on the back of your cabin door, as it includes a diagram showing the primary exit from the cabin.

I’m not super worried about myself. I am used to operating in emergencies and will figure it out. What I would be worried about is if we have to stay in the theater until everyone gets there like we do during muster before we can ‘abandon ship’. My safety shouldn’t come down to whether or not someone whose most stressful life experience is Starbucks getting their order wrong can make it to the muster in a timely fashion. 

[nosapphire]

I know that this has been mentioned earlier in this thread by others, but the muster is also a crew drill as well.

Although the crew will be continually undergoing drills, a drill with real live passengers is always better than pretending that they are rounding up and counting ducks - sorry, passengers.

 

45 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

I’m not super worried about myself. I am used to operating in emergencies and will figure it out. What I would be worried about is if we have to stay in the theater until everyone gets there like we do during muster before we can ‘abandon ship’. My safety shouldn’t come down to whether or not someone whose most stressful life experience is Starbucks getting their order wrong can make it to the muster in a timely fashion. 

I share your feelings, but abandon ship does not (fortunately)happen often, as the best and safest lifeboat is actually the cruise liner itself. The main reason for muster stations is to have all the passengers ready for instructions just in case - and it keeps them out of the way while the crew are busy solving the problem.

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I don’t think you have dealt with many people in an emergency. I have. They WILL need clear instructions. Simply saying, oh, they should know what that signL meant and where to go based on a 15 minute safety drill on day one isn’t sufficient.

I have, in fact, dealt with people in emergencies.  Just because some (perhaps many) will not pay attention or remember is not a valid reason for advising them.

 

Of course, as much on site guidance in an actual emergency AS IS POSSIBLE is ideal — but some preparation - including identifying a very long, virtually unmistakeable, alarm sound in advance, which takes little effort, is a worthwhile investment of the thirty seconds or so it might take.

[sanger727]

23 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

I have, in fact, dealt with people in emergencies.  Just because some (perhaps many) will not pay attention or remember is not a valid reason for advising them.

 

Of course, as much on site guidance in an actual emergency AS IS POSSIBLE is ideal — but some preparation - including identifying a very long, virtually unmistakeable, alarm sound in advance, which takes little effort, is a worthwhile investment of the thirty seconds or so it might take.

I never said not to advise people. I suspect that the video muster will include a recording of this signal with an explanation. But you also have to plan for the lowest common denominator. And in my experience, the lowest common denominator is frozen in inaction when a street near their home is closed unexpectedly. To expect them to hear an audio signal and make their way to the muster station they were shown 5 days ago, especially if commonly used hallways are closed, on their own, isn’t going to work. They will need directions. As stated by the experts, there will be crew stationed everywhere. So even if I were to not recognize the ‘signal’ I’m sure the crew would give clear instructions to muster. Also, the basis that this is an ‘unmistakable’ signal is prefaced on the idea that there are no other similar signals. Again, as a completely laymen on ship protocols, I don’t know that. Neither do new cruisers. Now we are down to counting the whistle blasts to see if there are 5 or 6.... 

[rkacruiser]

3 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Since fire is one of the prevalent emergencies experienced at sea and is best fought by containment, you may experience closed fire doors, even entire sections of multiple decks blocked off. While you may have a primary route from your cabin, or wherever you are on a ship to your Assembly Station, in an emergency you may require an alternate route, which may be through crew only spaces.

 

This is why numerous crew Stairway Guides are located throughout the ship guiding pax to their Assembly Stations via safe routes.

 

Suggest you read the safety poster on the back of your cabin door, as it includes a diagram showing the primary exit from the cabin.

 

During a Muster Drill on one of my cruises, I experienced this type of having to use the alternate route.  The primary route was blocked and my section was directed to the alternate route using the crew stairways.  Initially, it was unsettling because it was "different from routine".  Reflecting on the experience, it was one more learning situation that could be important to know in the future.  

[Aquahound]

17 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yep, Andy, surveyors are getting younger, USCG inspectors have never been to sea or operated machinery.  And, while the USCG will have designated "engine" and "deck" inspectors, you are right that class surveyors tend towards one discipline or the other, and don't show much knowledge of the "other".

 

I wish I could argue that point, but I can't.  It's probably because I'm getting older, but these young Lieutenants and junior petty officers scare the heck out of me sometimes.  Look for the crusty warrant officer with pitted face and coffee breath.  That's usually the guy who knows what he's doing. 😜

[chengkp75]

15 hours ago, sanger727 said:

Right. So people will be getting instructions from the crew. That was my ONLY point. To suggest that you can blow the signal and expect people to get where they need to go without ANY additional direction won’t work

Sorry, had to run to Boston for the birth of second grandson, and not good making long posts on the phone.

 

I don't believe I ever said that sounding the signal would be the only indication of an emergency, nor that it would be the only instructions given.  I won't quote myself, but I said that there will be an announcement immediately following the signal, both at a drill and in an emergency, explaining the signal and explaining what it means and what to do.  I also said that additional messages could be made as necessary.  And, as you have pointed out, there are crew stationed in the the passageways and stairwells to guide you and give you directions.  The GES signal is the first indicator for passengers of an emergency, and is non-verbal so that it can be universally understood, much like the universal road signs or bathroom signs that are in use today.

 

And, as someone pointed out, the PA announcement could be garbled, or you could not hear it because everyone in the cabin is asking "what was that noise, what is going on" at the same time, and no one can hear the first announcement (which is typically repeated), but if you know the signal, you can start your process of getting to the muster station (maybe putting some pants on) right away.

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

I wish I could argue that point, but I can't.  It's probably because I'm getting older, but these young Lieutenants and junior petty officers scare the heck out of me sometimes.  Look for the crusty warrant officer with pitted face and coffee breath.  That's usually the guy who knows what he's doing. 😜

Ah, the old days.  When inspectors were either the warrants with an entire career in marine inspection or retired Captains and Chiefs brought in under the special marine inspection program.  I had a petty officer inspector doing the engine room inspections, on a twin rudder ship, and he asked me "why did they put the two steering gears so far apart?"  😮

[navybankerteacher]

10 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

I wish I could argue that point, but I can't.  It's probably because I'm getting older, but these young Lieutenants and junior petty officers scare the heck out of me sometimes.  Look for the crusty warrant officer with pitted face and coffee breath.  That's usually the guy who knows what he's doing. 😜

Reminds me of the CPO’s and LDO’s rounding off their thirty years when I first reported on board.  The faster promotions which came along as the Navy modernized made sense - but it is rare for that effective  “gut feeling” to develop in ten or so years.  

Edited July 28, 2020 by navybankerteacher

[Heidi13]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Ah, the old days.  When inspectors were either the warrants with an entire career in marine inspection or retired Captains and Chiefs brought in under the special marine inspection program.  I had a petty officer inspector doing the engine room inspections, on a twin rudder ship, and he asked me "why did they put the two steering gears so far apart?"  😮

 

The MCA Flag State Inspectors were all crusty old Masters or Chiefs, most often with Extra Masters or combined 1st Class Motor/Steam CoC's. Back in the day, they were met at the gangway by a Cadet/3rd Officer and escorted to the Master's cabin, where the Captain's Tiger served tea & tabnabs before  starting the inspection.

 

Even in D/D, we couldn't meet the Inspector and escort him to the Master's cabin in a boilersuit, had to run back to the cabin and change into full blues, before heading to the gangway.

[rkacruiser]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Sorry, had to run to Boston for the birth of second grandson, and not good making long posts on the phone.

 

I hope the Mother and your new grandson are doing well.  That's far more important than any post on CC any of us could make.  

[ldubs]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Sorry, had to run to Boston for the birth of second grandson, and not good making long posts on the phone.

 

 

Congrats.  Our two grandkids were both born within the past 8 months!   I figure January/February 2021 are going to be busy times at hospital birthing centers.  Lol

[lenquixote66]

4 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Congrats.  Our two grandkids were both born within the past 8 months!   I figure January/February 2021 are going to be busy times at hospital birthing centers.  Lol

Nothing better than grandkids.Mine are teenagers,I feel so old.😀

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, lenquixote66 said:

Nothing better than grandkids.Mine are teenagers,I feel so old.😀

Agreed — of course, grandchildren are the best reason for having children.  There is little better than the hug you get from a two or three year old granddaughter. 

 

Of course my lot (10 of my own, and 11 of my wife’s) have aged aged a bit— but they still bring sunshine.

[MBP&O2/O]

The boiler suit comment tickled me ... Within P&O, I once sailed with an ex BI master who insisted on ‘Steaming Bonnets’ when entering and leaving port, no boilers suits during mooring ops ... full uniform only? Piddling down with rain at 5am ... I am sure the mooring hands were really impressed!
His worst idiosyncratic issue was that he insisted on dinner at 7:30pm .... which was a bit of a bind when you wanted to be in bed by 8:00pm for your 3hrs 40mins of permitted sleep 🤬

[lenquixote66]

12 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Agreed — of course, grandchildren are the best reason for having children.  There is little better than the hug you get from a two or three year old granddaughter. 

 

Of course my lot (10 of my own, and 11 of my wife’s) have aged aged a bit— but they still bring sunshine.

21,amazing. My wife’s sister has 10 and I thought that was a lot.We have 2 plus a grand dog.

[sanger727]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:24 AM, chengkp75 said:

Sorry, had to run to Boston for the birth of second grandson, and not good making long posts on the phone.

 

I don't believe I ever said that sounding the signal would be the only indication of an emergency, nor that it would be the only instructions given.  I won't quote myself, but I said that there will be an announcement immediately following the signal, both at a drill and in an emergency, explaining the signal and explaining what it means and what to do.  I also said that additional messages could be made as necessary.  And, as you have pointed out, there are crew stationed in the the passageways and stairwells to guide you and give you directions.  The GES signal is the first indicator for passengers of an emergency, and is non-verbal so that it can be universally understood, much like the universal road signs or bathroom signs that are in use today.

 

And, as someone pointed out, the PA announcement could be garbled, or you could not hear it because everyone in the cabin is asking "what was that noise, what is going on" at the same time, and no one can hear the first announcement (which is typically repeated), but if you know the signal, you can start your process of getting to the muster station (maybe putting some pants on) right away.

Sure, that all sounds reasonable. The sound could easily play during the video muster with an explanation. Problem solved. If they really need to play the alarm during embarkation they could do it shortly after embarkation with a PA announcement. Either way, I don’t see this as a major hurdle to muster 2.0.

[Heidi13]

11 hours ago, MBP&O2/O said:

The boiler suit comment tickled me ... Within P&O, I once sailed with an ex BI master who insisted on ‘Steaming Bonnets’ when entering and leaving port, no boilers suits during mooring ops ... full uniform only? Piddling down with rain at 5am ... I am sure the mooring hands were really impressed!
His worst idiosyncratic issue was that he insisted on dinner at 7:30pm .... which was a bit of a bind when you wanted to be in bed by 8:00pm for your 3hrs 40mins of permitted sleep 🤬

 

Wearing the "Steaming Bonnets" was normal practice in Passenger Division for arrivals & departures. Mind you on the 0000-0400 watch we could get away with not wearing a tie. When on the Bridge (except arr/dep) or Mooring Stations, we could wear a "Wooly Pully" with epaulets, but at all other times when in "Blues" we had to wear the reefer jacket. 

 

The uniform standards did get eased slightly on the 3 Princess ships.

[Luckiestmanonearth]

On 7/28/2020 at 10:16 PM, navybankerteacher said:

Agreed — of course, grandchildren are the best reason for having children.  There is little better than the hug you get from a two or three year old granddaughter. 

 

OP here .  Agreed with this assessment.  We have 2 Grandchildren (GD 5 years and GS 3 months) , 2 Grand-dogs and 2 Grand-Cats

[Hlitner]

On 7/28/2020 at 10:16 PM, navybankerteacher said:

Agreed — of course, grandchildren are the best reason for having children.  There is little better than the hug you get from a two or three year old granddaughter. 

 

Of course my lot (10 of my own, and 11 of my wife’s) have aged aged a bit— but they still bring sunshine.

We just had our third cruise cancelled (by the cruise line) since April.  The bad news is that we lost out on 76 cruise days and many land weeks in both Europe and Asia.  But the great news was that we spent many weeks hosting our young grandsons (1 and 3) in our home.  I recently told a friend that I felt blessed to have all that time with our young grandsons which would have been missed if we had been off on our usual extensive travel schedule.  

 

Hank

[lenquixote66]

37 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We just had our third cruise cancelled (by the cruise line) since April.  The bad news is that we lost out on 76 cruise days and many land weeks in both Europe and Asia.  But the great news was that we spent many weeks hosting our young grandsons (1 and 3) in our home.  I recently told a friend that I felt blessed to have all that time with our young grandsons which would have been missed if we had been off on our usual extensive travel schedule.  

 

Hank

We Face Time with our relatively young grand children every night.To me that is much better than cruising especially at my age.

[Hlitner]

3 minutes ago, lenquixote66 said:

We Face Time with our relatively young grand children every night.To me that is much better than cruising especially at my age.

Like you, we generally facetime with our two Grandsons most days and it is truly a daily highlight :).  Even when we have been on cruises all over the world, we have often managed to facetime with the kids.  DW was always very happy to have her old "flip phone" and it would generate questions (and strange looks) whenever she pulled out the antique.  But Facetime changed all that and she could not get an iPhone fast enough when she realized it was an easy way to keep in touch with the grandkids.  We have made it clear to our DD and SIL they they are always welcome to stay at our home....as long as they bring the children :).

 

Hank

[lenquixote66]

21 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Like you, we generally facetime with our two Grandsons most days and it is truly a daily highlight :).  Even when we have been on cruises all over the world, we have often managed to facetime with the kids.  DW was always very happy to have her old "flip phone" and it would generate questions (and strange looks) whenever she pulled out the antique.  But Facetime changed all that and she could not get an iPhone fast enough when she realized it was an easy way to keep in touch with the grandkids.  We have made it clear to our DD and SIL they they are always welcome to stay at our home....as long as they bring the children :).

 

Hank

We had flip phones till July 2018.We did not do Face Time until the pandemic began.

Usually our 11 year old granddaughter initiated the call .However,the calls are usually about 30 minutes and our 16 year old granddaughter spends quality time with us.

They also come to “visit” by standing outside our front door .

[Smokeyham]

I have read a number of articles about an alternate muster drill being proposed that includes the "watch the video" and then report to a muster station to have your card scanned.   I think there is value in having passengers actually put on a life jacket as part of the drill.   By doing this they will actually know where they are in their cabin (as opposed to desperately searching in an emergency) and will have at least some familiarity with it.

 

I strongly agree with what others have posted along the lines of what you do in training is what you will do in the real thing.