Congressional Investigation into CDC No-Sail Order

[livingonthebeach]

Well if it isn't another hurdle...now Congress is probing the CDC with a request of information pertaining to the influence the White House had in the decision to block the CDC from extending the no-sail order into February 15, 2021.  I'm afraid this is going to take time away from the CDC to tend to other matters, such as reviewing the Healthy Sail report proposed by RCG and NCL.  Wondering what plan Carnival proposed, if any? 

 

https://transportation.house.gov/news/press-releases/amid-allegations-the-trump-white-house-intervened-on-cdcs-no-sail-order-for-cruise-industry-chair-maloney-expands-records-request-to-cdc

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/10/14/cruise-probe-congress-looks-into-trump-influence-cdc-cruise-order/3657627001/

[A&L_Ont]

For some reason I am starting to think it will be delayed until a vaccination is widely available. It’s been almost 7 months without cruises, so what’s a few more.🤷‍♂️

[livingonthebeach]

7 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

For some reason I am starting to think it will be delayed until a vaccination is widely available. It’s been almost 7 months without cruises, so what’s a few more.🤷‍♂️

 

You may be right, although Asia and Europe have already restarted, it may not happen here for a while...the danger is the longer there is a ban, the risk becomes greater that some cruise lines and businesses that offer services to the cruise industry might not survive.  

[molly361]

Don't really know what it means but it can't be good

[livingonthebeach]

This means the CDC will have to spend additional man hours retrieving and sending to Congress the following by October 27, 2020 so less time to review the Healthy Sail plans:

 

1. A copy of all records and communications, including, but not limited to, emails, instant messages, and text messages discussing, referring to, or referencing preparation or isuance of the September 30, 2020, No Sail Order. Such records should include all drafts of the No Sail Order, in addition to all memorandum, reviews or related analysis about the No Sail Order. These communications should include:

1. 1. All communications between any CDC employee and any cruise line industry affiliated official, including, but not limited to, ship’s crew, officers, or medical or health care related staff as well as any other corporate employee; 
   2. All communications between state and local officials and CDC employees regarding the No Sail Order, including, but not limited to, local medical treatment capabilities and virus tracing capacity;
   3. All communications between any CDC employee and any HHS employee; and
   4. All communications between any CDC employee and any individual regarding or referring to the President’s Coronavirus Task Force (a/k/a the White House Coronavirus Task Force or White House Task Force).

[molly361]

2 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

This means the CDC will have to spend additional man hours retrieving and sending to Congress the following by October 27, 2020 so less time to review the Healthy Sail plans:

 

1. A copy of all records and communications, including, but not limited to, emails, instant messages, and text messages discussing, referring to, or referencing preparation or isuance of the September 30, 2020, No Sail Order. Such records should include all drafts of the No Sail Order, in addition to all memorandum, reviews or related analysis about the No Sail Order. These communications should include:

1. 1. All communications between any CDC employee and any cruise line industry affiliated official, including, but not limited to, ship’s crew, officers, or medical or health care related staff as well as any other corporate employee; 
   2. All communications between state and local officials and CDC employees regarding the No Sail Order, including, but not limited to, local medical treatment capabilities and virus tracing capacity;
   3. All communications between any CDC employee and any HHS employee; and
   4. All communications between any CDC employee and any individual regarding or referring to the President’s Coronavirus Task Force (a/k/a the White House Coronavirus Task Force or White House Task Force).

I was just coming to say that there is no way any Congressional Probe can be done by the end of the month when the no sail order is set to expire right??

[livingonthebeach]

3 minutes ago, molly361 said:

I was just coming to say that there is no way any Congressional Probe can be done by the end of the month when the no sail order is set to expire right??

 

Not sure one is dependent on the other.  The Congressional Probe was just announced yesterday, but Congress had been asking for records from the CDC since May.  When the news came out that there had been intervention from Washington, they stepped up investigations.

 

The CDC has been complaining that due to the cruise lines they have had to spend numerous additional man hours to deal with all the implications...and now this probe, which will increase the number of hours even more, a feat they have already said they are not equipped to deal with.  My fear is that this will push back the Healthy Sail plan even more.  

Edited October 15, 2020 by livingonthebeach

[A&L_Ont]

35 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

You may be right, although Asia and Europe have already restarted, it may not happen here for a while...the danger is the longer there is a ban, the risk becomes greater that some cruise lines and businesses that offer services to the cruise industry might not survive.  

Asia and Europe are not NA.  The lines have said they have cash until the end of next year. If they aren’t sailing by then we have bigger issues to worry about than no cruises. 

[livingonthebeach]

4 minutes ago, twangster said:

Perhaps the probe should be expanded to include the flip-flop fiasco related to CDC guidelines for opening schools or perhaps the numerous times the CDC reversed positions.  Surely such a probe would take months and months.  

 

Many feel the cruise industry is not being treated fairly.  I believe it is the only industry in Florida that remains closed everything else is open.

[livingonthebeach]

4 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

Asia and Europe are not NA.  The lines have said they have cash until the end of next year. If they aren’t sailing by then we have bigger issues to worry about than no cruises. 

 

Creditors, shareholders, ticket holders, cruise partners, suppliers will all be in line to recoup their interests, that is a sure thing if the ban continues for an inordinate amount of time. 

 

Of course Asia and Europe are not NA.  It's a different market with different laws, but if it can be successfully done there, it follows that if we relax some of our requirements and follow proven effective protocols, safe sailing could conceivably resume. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by livingonthebeach

[A&L_Ont]

43 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Creditors, shareholders, ticket holders, cruise partners, suppliers will all be in line to recoup their interests, that is a sure thing if the ban continues for an inordinate amount of time. 

 

Then they go bankrupt and restructure. It is a common occurrence.  It is not what we want to see, but that is better than no cruises ever again.  I guess if that happens we will see how Loyal to Royal people will remain if they lose FCCs etc. to which that is all just a discussion point at the moment. 

 

Quote

Of course Asia and Europe are not NA.  It's a different market with different laws, but if it can be successfully done there, it follows that if we relax some of our requirements and follow proven effective protocols, safe sailing could conceivably resume. 

 

The crux is "we" can't relax some of the requirements.  The CDC has to establish the rules and the cruise lines have to accept what they give approval too and follow through.  I and others have said, the CDC doesn't care about our love of cruises nor the economics related to it. 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by A&L_Ont

[Wedgeh]

40 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Of course Asia and Europe are not NA.  It's a different market with different laws, but if it can be successfully done there, it follows that if we relax some of our requirements and follow proven effective protocols, safe sailing could conceivably resume. 

Italy's cases per 100,000 is around a tenth that of Florida.

[livingonthebeach]

13 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

Then they go bankrupt and restructure. It is a common occurrence.  It is not what we want to see, but that is better than no cruises ever again.  I guess if that happens we will see how Loyal to Royal people will remain if they lose FCCs etc. to which that is all just a discussion point at the moment. 

 

 

The crux is "we" can't relax some of the requirements.  The CDC has to establish the rules and the cruise lines have to accept what they give approval too and follow through.  I and others have said, the CDC doesn't care about our love of cruises nor the economics related to it. 

 

 

Of course the "we" is not us here on CC or the private citizen, I was referring to those responsible for establishing / abolishing laws and regulations.  We have all been waiting for the CDC with baited breath for quite some time now. 

[A&L_Ont]

3 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 I was referring to those responsible for establishing / abolishing laws and regulations.  We have all been waiting for the CDC with baited breath for quite some time now. 

And I tend to feel that we will be waiting a while longer. Just because we want to sail it doesn’t mean the rules will be changed for us.

 

Lets see how Royal does in Singapore and maybe that will translate into positive vibes for NA sailings. 

[boscobeans]

So only the C.D.C.,  Cruise lines and the elected officials in the States affected along with the requested respondents from the general public can be considered and not the White House?  

 

My question is why a cruise ban was set in place for February 14th in the first place ??? Maybe Valentine's Day would be a great date ???? How about the 10th-11th- or maybe the 4th of July ??

 

With the therapies, new mitigation procedures and a possible vaccine in sight WHY NOT a 30 day at a time ban with another look at things from month to month?

 

The terrible contradictory information from the CDC dealing with mitigation, and value of masks changing from day to day from what they put on their website versus what their Director Redfield claims in interviews, why set a date so far into the future in such a fluid situation. 

 

Hotels, casinos, airlines, trains, restaurants, rallies,  protests, malls, supermarkets, political hearings and a myriad number of other venues, INCLUDING CRUISES FROM FOREIGN PORTS, are doing well.  From what is seen on videos and what is posted by passengers the cruise ships seem to be MORE than compliant with recommended guidelines from the Ivory Tower of the omniscient C.D.C., and certainly safer than many now open venues on land or in the air. 

 

The whole thing is a political teeter totter with hundreds of thousands of jobs on one side and a questionable government agency on the other.

 

 

 

 

[Vera/Lee]

24 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

Then they go bankrupt and restructure. It is a common occurrence.  It is not what we want to see, but that is better than no cruises ever again.  I guess if that happens we will see how Loyal to Royal people will remain if they lose FCCs etc. to which that is all just a discussion point at the moment. 

IF bankrupt happens, which I hope does not, it will hurt so many people as stated above. I wonder what would happen to the Loyal Crown & Anchor benefits. Would that program disappear with bankrupt like the common stock could? So many people are being hurt by these lock downs. Even the WHO noted that the other day.

[livingonthebeach]

2 minutes ago, Vera/Lee said:

IF bankrupt happens, which I hope does not, it will hurt so many people as stated above. I wonder what would happen to the Loyal Crown & Anchor benefits. Would that program disappear with bankrupt like the common stock could? So many people are being hurt by these lock downs. Even the WHO noted that the other day.

 

If bankruptcy happens, it depends whether it's a chapter 7 or 11.   Under chapter 11, a business can continue to operate while reorganizing.  If it's a chapter 7, it's a total liquidation and we can kiss our FCCs, deposits, and paid cruises goodbye. 

[Mapleleafforever]

17 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

If bankruptcy happens, it depends whether it's a chapter 7 or 11.   Under chapter 11, a business can continue to operate while reorganizing.  If it's a chapter 7, it's a total liquidation and we can kiss our FCCs, deposits, and paid cruises goodbye. 

Who cares about our FCC"s, deposits, and paid cruises, what about our C&A statuses?!!?!?!?!??!?!

 

Yes, that's a joke.......

[bouhunter]

22 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

If bankruptcy happens, it depends whether it's a chapter 7 or 11.   Under chapter 11, a business can continue to operate while reorganizing.  If it's a chapter 7, it's a total liquidation and we can kiss our FCCs, deposits, and paid cruises goodbye. 

I have no idea what bankruptcy proceedings would apply.  According to wikipedia they are "based" in the US but incorporated in Liberia....

 

But as you said, in the US anyway there is a big difference between Chapter's 7 & 11.

 

 

[molly361]

7 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

Who cares about our FCC"s, deposits, and paid cruises, what about our C&A statuses?!!?!?!?!??!?!

 

Yes, that's a joke.......

If you booked thru a Ontario TA (like I have) aren't the deposits and such protected under TICO?

[bigrednole]

1 hour ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Many feel the cruise industry is not being treated fairly.  I believe it is the only industry in Florida that remains closed everything else is open.

I think they are being treated completely unfairly. The protocols they can put in place are far greater than any other travel industry in the US. My personal belief is to allow the cruise lines a chance to prove themselves. Put CDC officials onboard a 3-4 night cruise. Not only are they there to observe, but to have active discussions on what they see is working and what is not. Those that are not can have immediate action taken to correct. Gradually increase the number of ships with the updated protocols and observations. 

 

The CDC and government need to have a serious discussion with the cruise lines. If they cannot put a viable date on the table, then the cruise lines must be afforded the information to file bankruptcy. There will be tons of people severely negatively impacted by that from shareholders to cruisers to other businesses and the cruise lines. Private islands have been part of the collateral for these loans and the cruise lines will be devastated to lose them.

[livingonthebeach]

9 minutes ago, bouhunter said:

I have no idea what bankruptcy proceedings would apply.  According to wikipedia they are "based" in the US but incorporated in Liberia....

 

But as you said, in the US anyway there is a big difference between Chapter's 7 & 11.

 

Correct, since they are incorporated in Liberia, it complicates the matter further.  From their articles of incorporation, it states that the Board of Directors need to vote in the case of bankruptcy and other issues.  I imagine the Board is not in Liberia.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/884887/000095014409002488/g18145exv3w1.htm

[livingonthebeach]

6 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

You're joking right? I just heard early 2021.

 

My issue is cdc only oversees cruising in florida nothing else. That seems unfair. Now bring in 

Politics....

 

Not only Florida but all ships sailing out of United States ports with more than 250 passengers.  However, theme parks, entertainment venues, movie theaters, large gatherings, etc. are not under their jurisdiction -- that has been left to local officials. 

[Milwaukee Eight]

I’m not sure this investigation, if it happens, will speed up the process. 
 

M8

[firefly333]

1 minute ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Not only Florida but all ships sailing out of United States ports with more than 250 passengers.  However, theme parks, entertainment venues, movie theaters, large gatherings, etc. are not under their jurisdiction -- that has been left to local officials. 

I know    ... you missed my pt. Cdc only seems to oversee cruising and between them and politics can run them bankrupt.