Congressional Investigation into CDC No-Sail Order

[Ashland]

27 minutes ago, HicksRA said:

Maybe they’ll give us one point for each $100 lost...., 😁

Or at least the points we would have received on our RCI cancelled cruise 

[A&L_Ont]

9 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

 

Imagine.... just a very short 6 months ago, RCL secured $2.2 BILLION dollars that would allow them to survive for about

16-17 months, and just the other day announced another $1 BILLION stock offering, for a total of about $3.7 BILLION dollars of fund raising basically. That takes them to approx. December'ish of 2021 with zero revenue.

 

So RCG actually plans (has been planning) to be shut down, worst case scenario, until December 2021. 

 

I believe bankruptcy/CH7or11 won't be in the discussion until Q2 or Q3 2021... if it gets that far without sailing then yikes!!

 

This is why I tend to feel they are more comfortable in just dragging out the start date of sailing here in NA.  Mid-summer of next year will be when they will start to feel the pressure if the have not yet set sail, when hopefully there is less risk.  JMO though. 

[tonit964]

1 hour ago, Ashland said:

And it could have gotten or going to get worse. We as a country should have all locked

down together very early on...things might have been better by now.

We have always been the "United" States of America...this time we weren't.

My son and I were talking about this the other day. I'm still furloughed 7 months and counting. He was saying he thinks had we all had a mandatory 30 day complete lockdown, we probably wouldn't be where we are now. He also said that because this hasn't happened in any of our lifetimes, who knows what the correct thing to do was.  

[Mapleleafforever]

29 minutes ago, Saturngrl said:

Cruises are also huge fundraisers for not-for-profit charities.   I serve as Board President for one and our organization will take a big financial hit if our February 2, 2021 cruise gets cancelled.  

 

I just read the letter and am appalled that the CDC has failed to comply with previous requests by congress for records and documentation.   CDC is non-compliant, so why should the cruise lines be punished?  

 

Before COVID 19, the big fear on cruise ships was Norovirus.  I will continue to do the same thing on future cruises that I did to prevent Norovirus: 

• Wipe down every hard surface in the cabin with disinfectant wipes upon entry
• UV light linens and cloth surfaces in the cabin
• Consider every surface on the ship and off the ship as being  contaminated and requiring hand hygiene. 
• Social distancing when able and adding a mask as required.  

I work in hospitals and these practices continue to ward off viruses.  

If the Singapore cruises are an indication of the precautions that will be in place when cruising in the US resumes mask use will even be mandatory on the pool deck unless you're in the pool, hot tub, or flowrider. 

[Hoopster95]

3 minutes ago, tonit964 said:

He also said that because this hasn't happened in any of our lifetimes, who knows what the correct thing to do was.  

 

In my sincere opinion, February 2020 (before C19 reached North America in earnest) all that had to do be done was to learn from and  follow S. Korea's lead.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Hoopster95

[yogimax]

11 minutes ago, tonit964 said:

He also said that because this hasn't happened in any of our lifetimes, who knows what the correct thing to do was.  

The fact was that we did know what the threat was and chose to ignore it.

 

In addition to the loss of life, one of the somewhat minor (in the scheme of things) results was what is now happening to the cruise industry.

[yogimax]

14 minutes ago, tonit964 said:

He also said that because this hasn't happened in any of our lifetimes, who knows what the correct thing to do was.  

sorry, double post

Edited October 15, 2020 by yogimax

[Baron Barracuda]

Easy to point fingers at CDC but it's not just US that has problems with cruising.  Currently banned in England, Australia, Canada and pretty much everywhere else in the world except a couple of exceptions in Italy, Norway and now maybe Singapore.

 

CDC's original no-sail order detailed issues cruise lines needed to address in order to be allowed to resume sailing.  Cruise lines dragged their feet through spring and summer as if hoping problem would just go away.  Subsequent no-sail orders chastised cruise lines for this non-responsiveness.  Even healthy sail panel report fails to fully address some major CDC concerns such as how to prevent onboard outbreaks from overburdening shore side medical facilities.

[PelicanBill]

27 minutes ago, Baron Barracuda said:

Easy to point fingers at CDC but it's not just US that has problems with cruising.  Currently banned in England, Australia, Canada and pretty much everywhere else in the world except a couple of exceptions in Italy, Norway and now maybe Singapore.

 

CDC's original no-sail order detailed issues cruise lines needed to address in order to be allowed to resume sailing.  Cruise lines dragged their feet through spring and summer as if hoping problem would just go away.  Subsequent no-sail orders chastised cruise lines for this non-responsiveness.  Even healthy sail panel report fails to fully address some major CDC concerns such as how to prevent onboard outbreaks from overburdening shore side medical facilities.

Well stated.  

I would add that CDC was paying close attention to the cruise ship situation - just go back to the detail provided with the no sail order.  And they have always been the authority on disease.  I feel we need to pay attention to their recommendations and not just override them because "it's time to get back to normal."   

[livingonthebeach]

36 minutes ago, Baron Barracuda said:

Easy to point fingers at CDC but it's not just US that has problems with cruising.  Currently banned in England, Australia, Canada and pretty much everywhere else in the world except a couple of exceptions in Italy, Norway and now maybe Singapore..

 

Besides, Italy,  Norway and Singapore, TUI (50% owned by RCG) has restarted out of Germany to the Greek Islands.  Ponant has been sailing around France, Croatia and Iceland.  Paul Gaugin has been sailing in French Polynesia. Hapag-Loyld has been sailing the Norwegian Fjords and coastal areas around Sweden and Denmark. Dream Cruises has been cruising around Taiwan and CroisiEurope around the Canary Islands.  There might be more now, these were a few about a month ago and some have been operating since July. 

[Missusdubbya]

3 minutes ago, Shipof6Fools said:

Complete lockdowns do not work. First off, it would never work in the US. Even when we were in complete lockdown in Florida at the beginning of this mess, the roads were still busy with people going to work/stores/etc.  Secondly, in in countries where complete lockdowns were in place (ie china), you still have flare ups after the lockdown is eased. Europe is a prime example. Their positive numbers are going up dramatically. And no you cannot stay locked down indefinitely.

Complete lockdown worked in New Zealand

[Pratique]

4 hours ago, Ashland said:

Then unless I'm misunderstanding it would have been better if the White House had stayed out of this ?

If past behavior is any indicator, they will likely interfere with this congressional investigation too.

[Jeremiah1212]

Until the US has concise leadership with a unified plan, allows the HSS and CDC to do their jobs, uninterrupted, and without interference, and educates the masses that science does change and what guidance was given 6 months ago may be adjusted based on new findings and research, we're in this mess for a long, long time. This is all just incredibly unfortunate, unacceptable and avoidable. 

 

[Kokomo91165]

1 hour ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

Until the US has concise leadership with a unified plan, allows the HSS and CDC to do their jobs, uninterrupted, and without interference, and educates the masses that science does change and what guidance was given 6 months ago may be adjusted based on new findings and research, we're in this mess for a long, long time. This is all just incredibly unfortunate, unacceptable and avoidable. 

 

CDC has been tripping over themselves since this virus started. Wear a mask. Don’t wear a mask. Airborne. Not airborne. Open school. Close schools. Doesn’t survive on surfaces. Survives on surfaces.

 

Regardless of political persuasion, government is inept and shouldn’t be relied upon to make informed decisions. Be smart. Use your judgement and common sense to keep your family safe. 

[yogimax]

8 minutes ago, Kokomo91165 said:

CDC has been tripping over themselves since this virus started. Wear a mask. Don’t wear a mask. Airborne. Not airborne. Open school. Close schools. Doesn’t survive on surfaces. Survives on surfaces.

 

Regardless of political persuasion, government is inept and shouldn’t be relied upon to make informed decisions. Be smart. Use your judgement and common sense to keep your family safe. 

As Jeremiah said, as knowledge of the virus is gained ways to effectively counter it change.

 

As for using common sense, that doesn't cut it.  Witness the actions of the college kids ignoring all rules with their back to school partying and folks throwing caution to the wind to stand maskless and side by side while shouting at a mass gathering.

[cured]

10 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Creditors, shareholders, ticket holders, cruise partners, suppliers will all be in line to recoup their interests, that is a sure thing if the ban continues for an inordinate amount of time. 

 

Of course Asia and Europe are not NA.  It's a different market with different laws, but if it can be successfully done there, it follows that if we relax some of our requirements and follow proven effective protocols, safe sailing could conceivably resume. 

You cannot possibly compare what is successful in Asia or Europe with what could possibly be successful here.

 

As you said, it is a different culture. In Asia particularly, masks are treated as a health safety item, not a political statement.

 

The white house alone had twice as many positive Corona cases in one week than Taiwan did in a month.

 

Asia has Covid under control. The USA does not.  Comparing what will work in Asia is apples to oranges to what will work in the US.

[firefly333]

Just my opinion but obviously if locking us up, at highest alert, masks required worked dallas wouldnt be getting worse. I think for 6 days a while back bars opened, but not since. 

 

Clearly just shutting things down worked we would be better off. 

 

I dont believe anyone knew how bad this was early on. I booked cruises in 2020, heard talk it might have come from a wet market and bats. Shutting down our economy didnt work. And as we go into winter it's getting worse. Claiming we just need to listen to the scientists and wear masks ... we are. It hasn't been enough. Anyone claiming to have known or someone knew I dont believe them. 

 

I was way too optimistic myself. I still think if disney can be open I should have the choice to cruise. Even if I have to drive to Florida. Its wrong the cdc gets to decide about cruises but disney is safe. Let me choose. 

 

My choice is open cruises if disney is open. Fair is fair.

[cured]

12 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

Well if it isn't another hurdle...now Congress is probing the CDC with a request of information pertaining to the influence the White House had in the decision to block the CDC from extending the no-sail order into February 15, 2021.  I'm afraid this is going to take time away from the CDC to tend to other matters, such as reviewing the Healthy Sail report proposed by RCG and NCL.  Wondering what plan Carnival proposed, if any? 

 

https://transportation.house.gov/news/press-releases/amid-allegations-the-trump-white-house-intervened-on-cdcs-no-sail-order-for-cruise-industry-chair-maloney-expands-records-request-to-cdc

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/10/14/cruise-probe-congress-looks-into-trump-influence-cdc-cruise-order/3657627001/

Good on Congress for doing its job of oversight.

 

The CDC should base its decisions solely on data derived solely from science and not be pressured nor overridden by politics. If they need to be babysat by congress to do their job, then so be it.

 

I know everyone wants to cruise, but they also want to know that the CDC has deemed it safe without their being an asterisk next to the order that the President made the decision based on politics and not health data.  Look at what has already happened with the trust in a safe vaccine. 

 

The data should be readily available to give to Congress, and hopefully will be allowed to provide it to Congress. Then they will review it, and  the cruise industry can move on with its plans with a public assured that the CDC lifted the no sail order based on science and not politics.

Edited October 15, 2020 by cured

[voyager70]

5 hours ago, tonit964 said:

My son and I were talking about this the other day. I'm still furloughed 7 months and counting. He was saying he thinks had we all had a mandatory 30 day complete lockdown, we probably wouldn't be where we are now. He also said that because this hasn't happened in any of our lifetimes, who knows what the correct thing to do was.  

 

Well said, I agree.

 

[voyager70]

2 hours ago, Missusdubbya said:

Complete lockdown worked in New Zealand

 

NZ is a small, isolated island nation.  A little bit different than the US.

 

[cured]

42 minutes ago, Kokomo91165 said:

CDC has been tripping over themselves since this virus started. Wear a mask. Don’t wear a mask. Airborne. Not airborne. Open school. Close schools. Doesn’t survive on surfaces. Survives on surfaces.

 

Regardless of political persuasion, government is inept and shouldn’t be relied upon to make informed decisions. Be smart. Use your judgement and common sense to keep your family safe. 

This is a NOVEL virus. Never seen before. Not like any other virus seen before to compare it to.  

 

Do you really think the scientists completely understood it from day 1?

 

Of course recommendations are going to change as our researchers around the world learn more and more how the virus behaves.

 

I have a child with a genetic abnormality.  I am also on the committee that advises new parents.  The first thing we tell new parents is to not read anything more than 2 years old since the science continues to evolve and anything they read older than that would probably have bad information.

The same is for this virus. Knowledge and science is evolving.  You should only listen to the latest recommendations since they are based on the latest knowledge. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by cured

[voyager70]

5 hours ago, Hoopster95 said:

 

In my sincere opinion, February 2020 (before C19 reached North America in earnest) all that had to do be done was to learn from and  follow S. Korea's lead.

 

Hindsight is always 20/20

 

[Missusdubbya]

6 minutes ago, voyager70 said:

 

NZ is a small, isolated island nation.  A little bit different than the US.

 

I was responding to the post “Complete lockdowns do not work”

 

I am aware where and what type of country New Zealand is 😁

[voyager70]

5 minutes ago, Missusdubbya said:

I was responding to the post “Complete lockdowns do not work”

 

I am aware where and what type of country New Zealand is 😁

 

Understood.  Guess I failed to read into your post correctly 😁

[Hoopster95]

16 minutes ago, voyager70 said:

 

Hindsight is always 20/20

 

 

I respectfully and with great sincerity disagree. If this average Joe can study youtube videos and medical reports internationally (especially of countries who were super successful and those that failed miserably - Italy) rather than watching USA Fox and CNN crap news, so could have top officials here in North America.