Immunity Passports: Corona Virus Seal

[clo]

I haven't read all these posts so I apologize if this has already been shared.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2020/12/08/vaccine-passport-immunity-app-covid/?utm_campaign=wp_by_the_way&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_bytheway

[Hlitner]

17 hours ago, clo said:

I haven't read all these posts so I apologize if this has already been shared.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2020/12/08/vaccine-passport-immunity-app-covid/?utm_campaign=wp_by_the_way&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_bytheway

That is a very interesting article.  I had also shared what is happening in Japan where the government is considering a requirement that all visitors/tourists must install a special Japanese government app on their phones that will track their movements in Japan and also require a daily health report (submitted by the user).  One related issue are we still have some cruisers who refuse to carry a Smartphone...but they may soon discover that a working Smartphone will be a requirement in some countries.  For those that do not own a Smartphone they would likely be forced to rent one when they enter the country.  This is also very likely going to happen in China where they are already using Smartphone apps to track the movements of their own population.

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

15 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

But there are still a few questions.  Since you would have antibodies does that mean that COVID tests would come back positive? 

 

I think you may be conflating two different things. 

 

The current vaccine candidates will NOT cause people to test positive on the viral tests -- the ones used to test whether you have a current COVID infection.

 

If you are talking about the antibody tests -- the ones used to determine whether you have been infected in the past and developed an immune response -- then yes, that is a possibility. But it is the same issue with other vaccines, e.g., how to determine whether immunity is achieved via infection or vaccination. In some respects an issue -- but if the goal is to establish an immune response, I'm not sure how much it matters going forward whether that is a result of infection or of vaccination.

 

[SelectSys]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

... I had also shared what is happening in Japan where the government is considering a requirement that all visitors/tourists must install a special Japanese government app on their phones that will track their movements in Japan and also require a daily health report (submitted by the user)... This is also very likely going to happen in China where they are already using Smartphone apps to track the movements of their own population...

 

My quaint and antiquated liberal tendencies shudder at the thought of mandatory applications on phones.  I think I might skip certain authoritarian countries for travel if such a requirement is made or at least get a disposable phone to throw in the trash after each trip.  Do I really want any government spyware/malware on my phone.

 

1 hour ago, KnowTheScore said:

The relatively tiny bunch of posters constantly harping on about mandated certificates and the like are simply not understanding the limitations of the vaccines.

 

I am not sure I fall into this camp or not.  My reasons for suggesting that vaccinations might be mandatory are also based in liability mitigation as much as health.  In all cases, both governments and private businesses can say, "we did our best to protect the public/customers."  Requiring a vaccination simply provides another level of defense against lawsuits.  This is of course more important for private businesses which is why QANTAS CEO Alan Joyce got out in front of the issues.

 

Perhaps I have been jaded by too much corporate training which is really all about protecting companies from litigation rather than actually educating their workforces.  

Edited December 11, 2020 by SelectSys

[clo]

47 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

"we did our best to protect the public/customers."  Requiring a vaccination simply provides another level of defense against lawsuits.  T

I totally agree. I have a corporate background and litigation always has to be part of the convo.

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 This is also very likely going to happen in China where they are already using Smartphone apps to track the movements of their own population.

 

I read somewhere that you can't even use credit cards in China any more. The only electronic payment they accept is via a payment app😳 Don't have a smart phone you will have to stick to cash 😁

Edited December 11, 2020 by ilikeanswers

[Hlitner]

7 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I read somewhere that you can't even use credit cards in China any more. The only electronic payment they accept is via a payment app😳 Don't have a smart phone you will have to stick to cash 😁

That is assuming they will keep accepting cash :).  There are some countries trying to rid themselves of cash.  I have been surprised at how slow the "Apple Wallet" has been to catch-on in the USA.  It has grown in popularity in some parts of our country but in other places it (and other payment apps) are a rarity.  I have had it installed on my iPhone for several years but only used it a handful of times.

 

Hank

[ilikeanswers]

4 hours ago, SelectSys said:

My quaint and antiquated liberal tendencies shudder at the thought of mandatory applications on phones.  I think I might skip certain authoritarian countries for travel if such a requirement is made or at least get a disposable phone to throw in the trash after each trip.  Do I really want any government spyware/malware on my phone.

 

What is the difference if a government tracks you or a private business tracks you? Besides even non smart phones can be tracked. Really if telecommunications companies want to track you the technology has been there for decades and already many countries have these tracking technologies integrated in their system. If anything I find an app at least is a system being transparent about the tracking because they could do it clandestine and avoid the headlines but instead they are asking the user to be aware of the tracking and to opt in to the process. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by ilikeanswers

[ilikeanswers]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

That is assuming they will keep accepting cash :).  There are some countries trying to rid themselves of cash.  I have been surprised at how slow the "Apple Wallet" has been to catch-on in the USA.  It has grown in popularity in some parts of our country but in other places it (and other payment apps) are a rarity.  I have had it installed on my iPhone for several years but only used it a handful of times.

 

I can't speak to America but from the blog I had read cash was still king in China and readily accepted. It just seems the government was to transition electronic payments to payment apps only so travelling in China without a smart phone will mean travelling with a lot of cash and no credit card back up. But you are right there are many countries transitioning to cashless. Last statistic I read was that cash payments in Australia only account for 30% of transactions and I know businesses in my area that have gone cashless due to Covid but after nearly a year they seem reluctant to go back to cash. 

[jocap]

10 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I can't speak to America but from the blog I had read cash was still king in China and readily accepted. It just seems the government was to transition electronic payments to payment apps only so travelling in China without a smart phone will mean travelling with a lot of cash and no credit card back up. But you are right there are many countries transitioning to cashless. Last statistic I read was that cash payments in Australia only account for 30% of transactions and I know businesses in my area that have gone cashless due to Covid but after nearly a year they seem reluctant to go back to cash. 

We've noticed that we're not spent much cash since the first lockdown in March;  until then the "Tap a Card" could only be used to buy £30 worth of stuff, but that's been increased to £45, so every tiny amount is now just by tapping. 

[ilikeanswers]

50 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

To me the difference is that I am more likely to have legal recourse with breaches and/or missuses of my information by private industry than government. I also would expect that private industry might do better in terms of securing information as they have a customer reputation aspect that seems absent in most government services.  

 

I have yet to hear of anyone being compensated for misuse or breach of security. So many companies have been breached and business seems to go on as usual 😕

 

50 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

You are correct that telcos have location meta data on all phones.  This data is available in the US to the police and other government agencies based on criminal investigations via a warrant process.  Otherwise it is out of bounds for sharing - or at least it was. 

 

Actually I wasn't talking about meta data but things like that Danish cyber security company (whose name completely slips my mind 😜 I clearly need a holiday😂) with their ability to go into anyone's phone and track every word you type and speak regardless of being smart or not. Arabian Gulf countries already admit to using this technology and to get to Europe I have to go through these countries so if I worried that much about my privacy I never would be able to go to Europe again😱. It is the price we pay for the privilege of travelling😕

50 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

As an aside, what makes you think that clandestine tracking isn't happening anyways? Eric Snowden's disclosures demonstrated that. At least those tracking me in a clandestine manner don't have my consent.

 

But that was my point having an app that you opt in is at least being honest about being tracked. They are letting you know this will happen otherwise don't enter the country. I don't see why not having my consent is a positive 😳. 

[SelectSys]

19 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

I have yet to hear of anyone being compensated for misuse or breach of security. So many companies have been breached and business seems to go on as usual 😕

 

I have received compensation in terms of free services for credit monitoring related to data breaches two or three times from private businesses.  

 

Other fines imposed by governments, at least in the US can be substantial.  Here is a link to some payments.

https://www.csoonline.com/article/3410278/the-biggest-data-breach-fines-penalties-and-settlements-so-far.html

 

Governments are way more unlikely to disclose or provide compensation for losses they cause.

20 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

Arabian Gulf countries already admit to using this technology and to get to Europe I have to go through these countries so if I worried that much about my privacy I never would be able to go to Europe again😱. It is the price we pay for the privilege of travelling

 

 It's some other countries that would give me pause and think about burner phones if mandatory applications where required for mobility.  Australia's big customer to the north might be one to consider.  It's all hypothetical at this point so who knows what tomorrow will bring.  

 

21 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

They are letting you know this will happen otherwise don't enter the country. I don't see why not having my consent is a positive

 

Your consent is really simply an acknowledgement of a policy as a term of entering any particular country.   As you suggest above, you are simply paying a privacy price to travel.   

[Philob]

On 12/11/2020 at 1:35 PM, ilikeanswers said:

 

I read somewhere that you can't even use credit cards in China any more. The only electronic payment they accept is via a payment app😳 Don't have a smart phone you will have to stick to cash 😁

The major western credit cards are accepted by places that caters for foreigners.  Outside of those places they won't accept your western credit card, but they readily accept cash or app payment. Credit card transactions require a reader, an expense merchants don't want to spend. If a "local" merchant accepts a credit card, it'll be a home based one like Union Pay. 

 

Last time we where there, SWMBO hosted a reunion lunch with her classmates at a fancy restaurant; sorry no credit cards accepted excepted Union Pay or app. Her BFF wiped out the phone and paid for the meal. 

 

Vending machines are app only, don't ask me how I know 😠   

[Aplmac]

On 12/3/2020 at 6:30 PM, Hlitner said:

What you call "alleged" has existed for decades in the form of International Vaccination Booklets (now gone) and International Yellow Fever Booklets (still around...we have them). 

Those documents do not show any antibody or titer results and simply show the date and type of vaccination and where received.   

But technology has moved a long way so I can see this changing. 

China is already using Smartphone apps for documentation and tracing

and Japan is now considering a tourist tracking app on any tourist's Smartphone with a requirement for daily health updates (via the app).

 

Forget the cellphone/App crap - I want a hard copy paper document.

 

When we were kids, back in the early 60s

everyone had a yellow (United Nations?) vaccination booklet

that 'lived' and travelled with one's passport!

You weren't going anywhere unless that Yellow Fever vac was up to date!
No longer in use (in my part of the Eastern Caribbean)

but there will soon be an equivalent!

 

Here's the proposed UK vaccination card for Covid. (Source: BBC)

If not like this, there will be something similar - it's coming, like it or not.

 

[navybankerteacher]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:45 PM, Hlitner said:

So, if we believe the Phase 3 Trial results that show approximately 95% Efficacy of two vaccines (currently on the chopping block) then I am trying to understand your "limitations" comment.  If the goal is to prevent any outbreak of COVID on a cruise it sure seems like everyone being vaccinated would likely achieve that goal.  

 

Hank

Of course the vaccine also does not protect you against being snatched from the deck of a cruise ship by a kraken.  This fellow will always be able to come up with “limitations” to support his antivaxxing slant.

[Hlitner]

4 minutes ago, Aplmac said:

 

Forget the cellphone/App crap - I want a hard copy paper document.

 

When we were kids, back in the early 60s

everyone had a yellow (United Nations?) vaccination booklet

that 'lived' and travelled with one's passport!

You weren't going anywhere unless that Yellow Fever vac was up to date!
No longer in use (in my part of the Eastern Caribbean)

but there will soon be an equivalent!

 

Here's the proposed UK vaccination card for Covid. (Source: BBC)

If not like this, there will be something similar - it's coming, like it or not.

 

LOL I still have a valid Yellow Fever Vaccination booklet (and it is yellow).  I also have my old shot record from when I was in the Air Force (it has records of over 50 shots).  But the reality is that paper documents are too darn easy to forge (there are already fake vaccine documents for sale in Europe).  We are becoming an electronic world with backup records in the Cloud and on various data bases.  As I already posted, California has a Statewide vaccine data base (CAIR2) and just this morning I was reading how New Jersey is establishing their own vaccine data base.  I suspect that as much of the world decides to require mandatory vaccinations (for entry) we will see a worldwide vaccine data base.  Passports are already "chipped" and their info is on data bases that is accessible by officials around the world.  Privacy has become a myth.  Folks that post things like "I keep my phone number private" are really kidding themselves.  It is relatively easy to obtain phone numbers (private numbers might mean having to spend $1 for the info).  I can go into the dark web and find just about any Social Security Number, credit card info, etc.   Medical records are supposed to be private, but the government (actually many governments around the world) require that those records be digitized and on data bases.  Those that work in the medical insurance industry (what I did at one point) have access to lots of medical records.  Shop at Amazon and there is a record of what you purchased, what you looked at, what you paid, where it was shipped, etc?  And that information is for sale!  Go to your supermarket and scan your little tag at check out (so you get discounts, double coupons, etc) and the supermarket knows what you buy.  In some new "Smart" markets they will know what shelves you browse, what products you touch, etc.   Yes folks, privacy is a myth.  

 

Hank

[navybankerteacher]

14 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

LOL I still have a valid Yellow Fever Vaccination booklet (and it is yellow).  I also have my old shot record from when I was in the Air Force (it has records of over 50 shots).  But the reality is that paper documents are too darn easy to forge (there are already fake vaccine documents for sale in Europe).  We are becoming an electronic world with backup records in the Cloud and on various data bases.  As I already posted, California has a Statewide vaccine data base (CAIR2) and just this morning I was reading how New Jersey is establishing their own vaccine data base.  I suspect that as much of the world decides to require mandatory vaccinations (for entry) we will see a worldwide vaccine data base.  Passports are already "chipped" and their info is on data bases that is accessible by officials around the world.  Privacy has become a myth.  Folks that post things like "I keep my phone number private" are really kidding themselves.  It is relatively easy to obtain phone numbers (private numbers might mean having to spend $1 for the info).  I can go into the dark web and find just about any Social Security Number, credit card info, etc.   Medical records are supposed to be private, but the government (actually many governments around the world) require that those records be digitized and on data bases.  Those that work in the medical insurance industry (what I did at one point) have access to lots of medical records.  Shop at Amazon and there is a record of what you purchased, what you looked at, what you paid, where it was shipped, etc?  And that information is for sale!  Go to your supermarket and scan your little tag at check out (so you get discounts, double coupons, etc) and the supermarket knows what you buy.  In some new "Smart" markets they will know what shelves you browse, what products you touch, etc.   Yes folks, privacy is a myth.  

 

Hank

Correct - like it or not everything one does leaves a trail;  so, as long as privacy is a myth, we may as well benefit from its loss - by, for example, being able to travel with confidence that health precautions are in place.

[Underwatr]

On 12/6/2020 at 7:44 PM, navybankerteacher said:

Has this been stated officially by anyone, anywhere?  Will that card be sufficiently unique, and impossible to duplicate, copy, counterfeit, or alter to serve ANY worthwhile purpose?

 

I assume that it must now be possible to buy "official" vaccine waiver certificates on line - much like the earlier mask exemption certificates.

You could say the same about the Yellow Card/Book. I guess there isn't much of a market for counterfeiting one's Yellow Fever innoculation status.

[Smokeyham]

Just read an article in the New York Times about major airlines rolling out an app called CommonPass that notifies users of local travel rules — like having to provide proof of a negative virus test — and then aims to check that they have met them. The app will then issue confirmation codes, enabling passengers to board certain international flights.

 

The article also mentions that the app might be adopted by other venues, such as cruises, and could be used to enforce vaccination requirements.

 

In a separate article Quantas has already announced that they will be requiring proof of vaccination, once it is widely available, in order to board international flights. 

NYT - Health Passport App

[ilikeanswers]

6 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Correct - like it or not everything one does leaves a trail;  so, as long as privacy is a myth, we may as well benefit from its loss - by, for example, being able to travel with confidence that health precautions are in place.

 

A few years I watched a documentary on the privacy of social media. At the beginning they did an experiment where the host hired a private investigator to find out as much information about him without using any internet sources. The investigator came back with pretty much the man's life story😂. It was mind boggling the information he could still obtain without internet or personal devices. Makes you wonder if maybe we have always been a little deluded about our privacy😳. 

[BVILady]

On 12/6/2020 at 3:11 PM, Philob said:

How long the vaccine will last? 

 

Nobody knows since trials only started before this summer.  Say you got the second shot July 2021, and you have your vax cert. Will you need a booster 6 months, 12 months, never ever?  

 

Of course the more people that get vax'd the more data becomes available that they'll be able to give a  guestimate in a couple of years.

 

In the meantime I'm pretty sure if countries or the travel industry requires proof of vaccination they may require that you must have your last vaccine shot X months prior to travel.

 

 

that is a question I am worried about, being 71 I might get my shot maybe May/June where I reside. Having booked a World cruise January 2022 will I be able to go or will they reject the vaccination as outdated and will there be a booster shot available if needed. There is going to be a large amount of money at stake for me.

  

 

[Underwatr]

The more people that get the vaccine the greater the likelihood that it just dies out like Smallpox.

[mom says]

1 hour ago, Underwatr said:

The more people that get the vaccine the greater the likelihood that it just dies out like Smallpox.

I think we would all like to see that happen. But like the smallpox case, it would require quite a few years and a sustained, aggressive global campaign. For now, I'd be happy to see enough herd immunity, globally,  to have only isolated small outbreaks

[SelectSys]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:20 AM, Aplmac said:

 

Forget the cellphone/App crap - I want a hard copy paper document.

...

 

 

To be worth anything, it will need to tie back to some kind of database for look up. 

 

What is interesting at least in the US is that there is a privacy law that prohibits the general disclosure of health information.  Maybe the card will help in this matter.

[Aplmac]

1 hour ago, mom says said:

 For now, I'd be happy to see enough herd immunity, globally,

 to have only isolated small outbreaks....

 

Like Ebola in Western Africa, now and then -

but ultimately defeated totally -and utterly eradicated