kenphy Posted February 25, 2021 #526 Share Posted February 25, 2021 On 2/12/2021 at 3:03 PM, moodyb1 said: I think a vaccine should be mandatory. The safer the better. I have recovered from Covid-19 and it's something you don't want to get!! I'm getting my first shot in March and the second a few weeks after. No fools should be allowed aboard, IMO! Bravo! We have had both of our vaccine shots now, and I do not want to cruise with anyone who hasn't had it. On the other hand, I will not cruise if a mask is required. I wear a face fully covered shield now, as my doctor doesn't want me to wear a mask, since my oxygen level drops 4-5% if I wear one. I think every passenger should be vaccinated, and then, let's cruise as normal. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowzz Posted February 25, 2021 #527 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, sparks1093 said: I understand that, but some people don't. I do find it strange popping onto this forum, that so many of the doubts and issues about the new vaccines raised here, were dispelled a considerable time ago in the UK, by a combination of factual reports in the newspapers, and medical experts appearing in various scientific programmes on mass media. The result has been that the uptake of the vaccine in the UK (25% of the population and rising)has been phenomenal, with a consequent substantial decline in the CV19 death rate. Did the US not have a similar education programme ? It certainly doesn't appear so, given some of the bizarre posts I have read. Edited February 25, 2021 by wowzz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilikeanswers Posted February 25, 2021 #528 Share Posted February 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, wowzz said: I do find it strange popping onto this forum, that so many of the doubts and issues about the new vaccines raised here, were dispelled a considerable time ago in the UK, by a combination of factual reports in the newspapers, and medical experts appearing in various scientific programmes on mass media. The result has been that the uptake of the vaccine in the UK (25% of the population and rising)has been phenomenal, with a consequent substantial decline in the CV19 death rate. Did the US not have a similar education programme ? It certainly doesn't appear so, given some of the bizarre posts I have read. I don't think it is just about educating, it is also lack of trust. In the USA from what I read there seems to be a real lack of trust in institutions😳. To be honest I think the politics really fuelled all the mistrust. It was just unlucky the pandemic hit on an election year otherwise maybe everyone would have been more unified there would have been less contradictory messages😕. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare broberts Posted February 25, 2021 #529 Share Posted February 25, 2021 4 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said: The meaning was you can travel with almost no restrictions other than the common sense of getting tested. I have been working with a TA on an AI to Cancun, Jamaica, Punta Cana and other trips to St Thomas, St Maarten, and Cozumel. The only real criteria is to be tested. The only return requirement is to be tested. This is not rocket science. To hold cruise lines to a completely different standard, from a US perspective, is ridiculous. Port countries can have their own rules. In most cases, they wouldn't be any different than they are now. None require vaccine, only negative testing. That same requirement should be on the cruise industry as well. Instead, there are political reasons why cruise lines are shutdown. Even the ports are saying they should be open. All covid has done is proven that the CDC is too ill-prepared for pandemics, they have far too much reach and power, and they have absolutely no clue what they are doing. To prove that last one: no cruises and 100% immunity from covid and carrying it on airline, no mask, wear a mask, don't wear a gaiter, gaiters are fine, medical masks are not good enough, medical masks are perfectly fine, wearing 1 mask does nothing you have to wear 2, vaccines are great but not perfect. In other words, they clearly have stated they have no clue. Adn yes, I will say it to any one of the overpaid people running it. Obviously the unsubtle differences between cruise ship travel and air travel completely escape this poster. As do the differences between cruise ships and islands. Of course standards are different. Just as the USCG has different safety standards than those of various Caribbean islands. Yet I haven't seen any posts suggesting that there is an unfair double standard when it comes to maritime safety. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Hlitner Posted February 25, 2021 #530 Share Posted February 25, 2021 5 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said: You failed to see the point!!! None require a vaccine. No one has been against taking a covid test. I am 100% for the procedures in place. I am 100% in favor of vaccination for those that can voluntarily get it. I am 100% against restrictions for those that have no possibility of being vaccinated kids under 16). I would agree to more rigorous testing for kids under 16 as well because they cannot be vaccinated. I think that you fail to see the limitations of testing. Yes, testing is a valuable tool. But the current tests all have some major limitations. For starters, there are false negatives (which have risen to nearly 20% in some studies of antigen tests). An even bigger problem is no test (not even the best PCR tests) will show if a person has recently (within the previous 2-4 days) been exposed to COVID. False positives are also an issue (primarily with antigen tests) which can cause some grief. As to you traveling to Mexico, come on down :). We have been living in Puerto Vallarta since Jan 3. There is no testing requirement to enter Mexico. You simply get on a plane and you will be in Mexico in a few hours. COVID is a problem here in Mexico so one is well advised to first get vaccinated or, alternatively, follow strict and common sense COVID mitigation measures. Under the current CDC rules you will need to be tested (antigen or PCR test) within 3 days before your return flight to the USA...but getting tested in Mexico has become quite easy and relatively inexpensive (especially for antigen tests). Ironically, you could simply enter the USA as an illegal (by slipping over the border) in which case you would not need any test and the government might even pay to get you home (but only if they think you are an illegal alien). Hank 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelectSys Posted February 25, 2021 #531 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, ilikeanswers said: I've tried that website but find it is very glitchy for me. That was why I put the link to the other website, I think it is easier for others to navigate and more accessible. That's too bad as the site is rock solid for me especially if you like looking at data as much as getting answers. I like the fact that it allows one to make direct comparisons as well as slice the data along different aspects. The breadth of data is simply without parallel to other sites open to the public. A good example of the democratization of data that is possible when the net gets applied well. 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Daily confirmed COVID-19 deathsMap and time-series Daily confirmed COVID-19 deathsBy Region Daily confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million people Daily confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million, 3-day rolling average Daily confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million, rolling 7-day average Daily confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million: which countries are bending the curve?Trajectories Daily confirmed COVID-19 deaths, rolling 7-day average Daily confirmed COVID-19 deaths: which countries are bending the curve?Trajectories Daily new confirmed COVID-19 cases and deaths Daily new confirmed cases of COVID-19 Daily new confirmed cases of COVID-19 Daily new confirmed cases of COVID-19 per million people Daily new estimated COVID-19 infections from the ICL model Daily new estimated COVID-19 infections from the IHME model Daily new estimated COVID-19 infections from the LSHTM model Daily new estimated COVID-19 infections from the YYG model Daily new estimated infections of COVID-19 Daily tests per thousand peopleSince total confirmed cases reached 1 per million Daily vs. Total confirmed COVID-19 cases Daily vs. Total confirmed COVID-19 cases per million people Daily vs. Total confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million Daily vs. cumulative confirmed deaths due to COVID-19 Debt or contract relief during the COVID-19 pandemic Excess mortality during COVID-19: Deaths from all causes compared to previous years, all agesP-scores Excess mortality during COVID-19: Deaths from all causes compared to previous years, by ageP-scores Excess mortality during COVID-19: Number of deaths from all causes compared to previous yearsRaw death counts Face covering policies during the COVID-19 pandemic Government Response Stringency Index vs. Biweekly change in confirmed COVID-19 cases Grocery and pharmacy stores: How did the number of visitors change since the beginning of the pandemic? How did the number of visitors change since the beginning of the pandemic? Income support during the COVID-19 pandemic International travel controls during the COVID-19 pandemic Number of COVID-19 patients in ICU per million Number of COVID-19 patients in hospital Number of COVID-19 patients in hospital per million Number of COVID-19 patients in intensive care (ICU) Number of people fully vaccinated against COVID-19 Number of people who received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine Number of tests per confirmed case vs. Total confirmed COVID-19 cases per million people Parks and outdoor spaces: How did the number of visitors change since the beginning of the pandemic? Per capita: COVID-19 tests vs. Confirmed deaths Per capita: tests for COVID-19 vs. Confirmed cases Public information campaigns on the COVID-19 pandemic Public transport closures during the COVID-19 pandemic Residential areas: How did the time spent at home change since the beginning of the pandemic? 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School closures during the COVID-19 pandemic Share of COVID-19 tests that were positiveOver time, since 5th death was confirmed Share of people who received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine Share of the population fully vaccinated against COVID-19 Share of total COVID-19 tests that were positive Share who would get a COVID-19 vaccine if it was available to them this week Stay-at-home requirements during the COVID-19 pandemic Tests conducted per new confirmed case of COVID-19 Tests per confirmed case – total vs. Case fatality rate Tests per thousand since the 100th confirmed case of COVID-19 Tests per thousand since the 5th confirmed death due to COVID-19 The share of COVID-19 tests that are positive Total COVID-19 testsLine chart Total COVID-19 testsMap chart Total COVID-19 tests conducted vs. Confirmed cases Total COVID-19 tests conducted vs. Confirmed casesPositive rate comparison Total COVID-19 tests conducted vs. Confirmed cases per million Total COVID-19 tests for each confirmed case Total COVID-19 tests for each confirmed caseBar chart Total COVID-19 tests per 1,000 peopleLine chart Total COVID-19 tests per 1,000 peopleMap chart Total COVID-19 tests per 1,000 peopleBar chart Total COVID-19 tests per 1,000 vs. GDP per capita Total COVID-19 tests per 1,000: how are testing rates changing?Since daily new confirmed deaths due to COVID-19 reached 0.1 per million Total COVID-19 tests per 1,000: how are testing rates changing?Since daily new confirmed deaths due to COVID-19 reached 0.1 per million Total and daily confirmed COVID-19 cases Total and daily confirmed COVID-19 cases per million people Total confirmed COVID-19 casesBy Income Group Total confirmed COVID-19 cases per million peopleMap and country time-series Total confirmed COVID-19 cases per million: how rapidly are they increasing?Trajectories Total confirmed COVID-19 cases vs. deaths per million Total confirmed COVID-19 cases, by source Total confirmed COVID-19 cases: how rapidly are they increasing?Trajectories Total confirmed COVID-19 deathsMap and country time-series Total confirmed COVID-19 deathsBy Income Group Total confirmed COVID-19 deaths and cases per million people Total confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million people Total confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million vs GDP per capita Total confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million: how rapidly are they increasing? Total confirmed COVID-19 deaths: how rapidly are they increasing?Trajectories Total confirmed deaths due to COVID-19 vs. Population Total confirmed deaths from COVID-19, by source Total number of COVID-19 tests per confirmed case Transit stations: How did the number of visitors change since the beginning of the pandemic? Week by week change in confirmed COVID-19 cases Week by week change of confirmed COVID-19 cases vs. GDP per capita Week by week change of confirmed COVID-19 deaths Week by week change of confirmed COVID-19 deaths vs. GDP per capita Weekly case growth rate vs. daily case rate Weekly confirmed COVID-19 cases Weekly confirmed COVID-19 cases per million people Weekly confirmed COVID-19 deaths Weekly confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million people Weekly death growth rate vs. daily death rate Weekly new ICU admissions for COVID-19 Weekly new ICU admissions for COVID-19 per million Weekly new hospital admissions for COVID-19 Weekly new hospital admissions for COVID-19 per million Which countries do COVID-19 contact tracing? Workplace closures during the COVID-19 pandemic Workplaces: How did the number of visitors change since the beginning of the pandemic? Edited February 25, 2021 by SelectSys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare sparks1093 Posted February 25, 2021 #532 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, wowzz said: I do find it strange popping onto this forum, that so many of the doubts and issues about the new vaccines raised here, were dispelled a considerable time ago in the UK, by a combination of factual reports in the newspapers, and medical experts appearing in various scientific programmes on mass media. The result has been that the uptake of the vaccine in the UK (25% of the population and rising)has been phenomenal, with a consequent substantial decline in the CV19 death rate. Did the US not have a similar education programme ? It certainly doesn't appear so, given some of the bizarre posts I have read. I would echo the response below, there is a lot of mistrust in our media outlets in the US right now and the entire situation has been politicized to the point that trust in information is at a low point for many. 57 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said: I don't think it is just about educating, it is also lack of trust. In the USA from what I read there seems to be a real lack of trust in institutions😳. To be honest I think the politics really fuelled all the mistrust. It was just unlucky the pandemic hit on an election year otherwise maybe everyone would have been more unified there would have been less contradictory messages😕. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ontheweb Posted February 25, 2021 #533 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, sparks1093 said: I understand that, but some people don't. Is it that they do not understand, or is it that they are looking for an excuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare cruisemom42 Posted February 25, 2021 #534 Share Posted February 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Sky616 said: Nobody in my family disagrees with me. Nobody is getting it. My in laws in their 70's said no way. Not being a guinea pig. Over 66 million doses have been given out so far in the US alone. Tens of thousands were involved in clinical trials in which some of the data is now more than 6 months since vaccination. And there are two months' reporting on those receiving vaccinations in the broader public since the emergency use approval. So far, there does not appear to be any greater risks associated with vaccination -- in particular in regard to anaphylaxis (about same risks as any vaccine) or death. So -- at what point will you and your family be satisfied that you're not "guinea pigs"? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted February 25, 2021 #535 Share Posted February 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said: So -- at what point will you and your family be satisfied that you're not "guinea pigs"? Why are we having this discussion? Anonymous bloggers aren't likely to convince anybody to do anything they're afraid of. It would be nice to get back to the original question of "will you sail if vaccinations are required yes/no?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ride-The-Waves Posted February 25, 2021 #536 Share Posted February 25, 2021 The difference in technologies associated with medical testing from even 10 years ago, much less comparing testing to the era of polio, is staggering. Today they can approve vaccines and other medical treatments quickly using subjects and computers. Don't need to wait years. Testing of the Pfizer. Moderna, J&J and other western vaccines is better today than it was just a few years ago. I would not be able to say that about the Chinese and Russian vaccines... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare sparks1093 Posted February 25, 2021 #537 Share Posted February 25, 2021 25 minutes ago, ontheweb said: Is it that they do not understand, or is it that they are looking for an excuse? It probably varies by each individual, just like anything else involving humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Hlitner Posted February 25, 2021 #538 Share Posted February 25, 2021 There is nothing new about the "anti-vax" state of mind. I have posted before about my lifetime working in healthcare (insurance) and the constant problems and efforts we would make to try and overcome the anti-vax sentiments in the community. COVID is no different. Just the other evening we were out to dinner with 2 Canadian couples (friends) and we started talking about the vaccine situation. We expected our Canadian friends to be concerned about the pace of the rollout in their country but were surprised that two of them (one an eye doctor) have no desire to get either of the mRNA vaccines (Moderna or Pfizer) and the other couple was also hedging on the issue. These are all very educated folks who are not into conspiracy stuff....but they have an issue with COVID vaccines. What we are going to see in the USA is very predictable. In the next few months the supply and availability of vaccines will catch-up and exceed the demand after which there will be a PR campaign to "encourage" more folks to get vaccinated. But there will be considerable resistance which will, unfortunately, make it much more difficult to get COVID under control. Partially because of the anti-vax resistance coupled with delays in vaccination allowing time for more virus mutation, I think COVID is going to a problem for many years (possibly decades) to come. Even those who have already been infected with COVID and recovered can easily get this disease again (the antibodies disappear over a period of months) so we will have a flu like situation of constant COVID problems. And even if we can achieve a relatively high percentage of vaccine participation the entire cycle repeats as we need these folks to get periodic booster shots. And for us on CC who love to cruise this all is a real nightmare. Society has evolved (pushed by politicians and some health experts) into a situation where "zero risk" is seen as the goal. But zero risk of diseases like COVID do not happen (just look at the flu, measles, etc. for some examples). If cruise ships are held to a zero risk standard it is difficult to imagine how there will ever be a major cruise industry in the near future. Hank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky616 Posted February 25, 2021 #539 Share Posted February 25, 2021 25 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said: Over 66 million doses have been given out so far in the US alone. Tens of thousands were involved in clinical trials in which some of the data is now more than 6 months since vaccination. And there are two months' reporting on those receiving vaccinations in the broader public since the emergency use approval. So far, there does not appear to be any greater risks associated with vaccination -- in particular in regard to anaphylaxis (about same risks as any vaccine) or death. So -- at what point will you and your family be satisfied that you're not "guinea pigs"? Never, not getting it. If there has been a broad bad reaction or even deaths do you think the fake news media is going to tell the public that. They lie about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger88 Posted February 25, 2021 #540 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Well, based on my relatives and friends who got vaccinated, its all safe to do and there are no side effects. However, me, as a person who has never done a single vaccine in his life, I am still in doubt cause I dont want anything unknown getting inside my body 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfunk138 Posted February 25, 2021 #541 Share Posted February 25, 2021 49 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said: So -- at what point will you and your family be satisfied that you're not "guinea pigs"? I think the threshold many are waiting for is the official FDA license of the Covid vax. Right now, it's only authorized under an "Emergency Use Authorization":https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/federal-law-prohibits-employers-and-others-from-requiring-vaccination-with-a-covid-19-vaccine-distributed-under-an-eua/ "The abbreviated timelines for the emergency use applications and authorizations means there is much the FDA does not know about these products even as it authorizes them for emergency use, including their effectiveness against asymptomatic infection, death, and transmission of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes the disease. Given the uncertainty about the two vaccines, their EUAs are explicit that each is “an investigational vaccine not licensed for any indication” and require that all “promotional material relating to the Covid-19 Vaccine clearly and conspicuously … state that this product has not been approved or licensed by the FDA, but has been authorized for emergency use by FDA”" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ontheweb Posted February 25, 2021 #542 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, jfunk138 said: I think the threshold many are waiting for is the official FDA license of the Covid vax. Right now, it's only authorized under an "Emergency Use Authorization": But that is not what the posters in this thread who are adamant about not getting the vaccine are saying. They emphasize the word NEVER! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ontheweb Posted February 25, 2021 #543 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Hlitner said: There is nothing new about the "anti-vax" state of mind. I have posted before about my lifetime working in healthcare (insurance) and the constant problems and efforts we would make to try and overcome the anti-vax sentiments in the community. COVID is no different. Just the other evening we were out to dinner with 2 Canadian couples (friends) and we started talking about the vaccine situation. We expected our Canadian friends to be concerned about the pace of the rollout in their country but were surprised that two of them (one an eye doctor) have no desire to get either of the mRNA vaccines (Moderna or Pfizer) and the other couple was also hedging on the issue. These are all very educated folks who are not into conspiracy stuff....but they have an issue with COVID vaccines. From your experience, can you give an estimate of what percentage of the population is made up of anti-vaxxers? Do you think the percentage might be lower for the Covid shots because of the bombardment we all receive of the death toll? Or could it possibly be higher since there have not been vaccines in the past that were approved for emergency use so quickly, and this scares some people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted February 25, 2021 #544 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, SelectSys said: At least skim the Time article for more information about the campaign. Many factors contributed to electoral success/failure in 2020. I don't need to 'skim' an article from Time, I wasn't referencing the whole election issues, just the part where trust in the vaccine was undermined for political gains. Now, they have to work hard to walk it back. Edited February 25, 2021 by Daniel A 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted February 25, 2021 #545 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Sky616 said: Never, not getting it. If there has been a broad bad reaction or even deaths do you think the fake news media is going to tell the public that. They lie about everything. “Never” is a very long word - and not recommended for use by people capable of ever changing their mind. Can you identify the “fake news media”? Are they outlets like the New York Times and major TV networks, or are they the proliferating on line outlets which usually have tear-jerking stories about sports and entertainment personalities (and may very well be sponsored by Russian, Chinese or Iranian disinformation offices who are delighted to feed discontent )? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toofarfromthesea Posted February 25, 2021 #546 Share Posted February 25, 2021 4 hours ago, Daniel A said: I liked most of your post, but understand that as the vaccines become more widely available, it will be the unvaccinated who will be the only vectors of the disease, prolonging the pandemic and attendant restrictions. So, if the restrictions continue in place it will only be because of those who refused to be vaccinated. I have a similar train of thought as yours about vaccinations and continuing to need to abide by restrictions. I'm just not ready to end up on a ventilator at this point in my life, so I will readily accept the vaccine. If vaccinated, and cruise lines will still require masks and quarantines it's not worth it to me to get on a cruise ship but it's clearly worth my life to take the vaccine. Except they are already saying that getting vaccinated doesn't mean a return to normalcy. A Vaccination was the Holy Grail, and now it is not good enough. Fauci just said that vaccinations notwithstanding, we should be wearing masks well into 2022. And I'm old enough to remember when it was 2 weeks to flatten the curve. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toofarfromthesea Posted February 25, 2021 #547 Share Posted February 25, 2021 4 hours ago, wowzz said: The amount of clinical trials carried out were greater than would normally be the case, but because immediate funding was available, there was not the need to wait for additional monies to become available between each trial stage. Hence the ability to safely speed up the development progress. I'm amazed that this same old mantra keeps getting wheeled out, given that all the approved vaccines have gone through the same approval process that has been used for all previous vaccines. There are 2 components of a trial, the number of people and the length of the trial. No previous vaccine was approved based on trials of such relatively short duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted February 25, 2021 #548 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Roger88 said: Well, based on my relatives and friends who got vaccinated, its all safe to do and there are no side effects. However, me, as a person who has never done a single vaccine in his life, I am still in doubt cause I dont want anything unknown getting inside my body Do you catch your own fish, grind your own flour, bake your own bread, make your own pizza — doesn’t eating food constitute putting stuff inside your body? Trying anything much more complex than an apple you picked yourself involves trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted February 25, 2021 #549 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said: Do you catch your own fish, grind your own flour, bake your own bread, make your own pizza — doesn’t eating food constitute putting stuff inside your body? Trying anything much more complex than an apple you picked yourself involves trust. If you didn't sit in the orchard and watch that apple grow, you don't really know what was sprayed onto it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted February 25, 2021 #550 Share Posted February 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said: Except they are already saying that getting vaccinated doesn't mean a return to normalcy. A Vaccination was the Holy Grail, and now it is not good enough. Fauci just said that vaccinations notwithstanding, we should be wearing masks well into 2022. And I'm old enough to remember when it was 2 weeks to flatten the curve. Fauci did walk that statement back the next day saying if two people are vaccinated, common sense says they don't need to use 'stringent public health measures.' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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