Florida Looking to Push Back Against CDC

[deliver42]

The governor has also said he will not allow anyone doing business in Florida to require vaccines, and that includes cruise ships. Does anyone really think the CDC will allow ships to sail without 100% vaccine?

[idiebabe]

3 hours ago, Cruise NH said:

Okay this is totally unscientific on my part but outside these cruise forums I don't hear the general public clamoring for cruises.  I'd be curious what you are all hearing from your non-cruising friends. 

 

When this subject comes up at family (zoom) discussions or with our neighbors, hair dresser, etc they give me that grimace that says 'are you kidding'?  

 

I know there is an economic impact, as there is for all tourist related industries, and I feel bad for those affected, but I wonder (again outside these forums) how many people are ready to jump on a ship.  They are going to have to do some major PR to prove to folks that they are safe.

There are also other Cruise Groups not on CC where you can see how many are anxious to get back to Cruising.  Here’s an Article on CC regarding the Demand for Cruising.

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/6025/

 

When my Floridian Daughter texted me the Breaking News that DeSantis filed the Suit we were happy.   We took it as a another step to try and have Cruises resume out of US Ports especially after NCL joined RCL and Celebrity  in the Carib and Carnival announced they may do the same. 
 

I can’t wrap my head around why some here are so negative regarding Cruises resuming here in the U.S.  but fully support Cruising out of Europe, etc. and have Cruises booked to do so!  Sad!

 

These Cruise Lines need to resume Sailing!  The States where these Cruises sail from also need them to startup again.  https://www.portofgalveston.com/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=166

 

If some of you don’t want to Sail, then don’t!  Your choice!  

 

 

 

[nocl]

1 hour ago, idiebabe said:

There are also other Cruise Groups not on CC where you can see how many are anxious to get back to Cruising.  Here’s an Article on CC regarding the Demand for Cruising.

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/6025/

 

When my Floridian Daughter texted me the Breaking News that DeSantis filed the Suit we were happy.   We took it as a another step to try and have Cruises resume out of US Ports especially after NCL joined RCL and Celebrity  in the Carib and Carnival announced they may do the same. 
 

I can’t wrap my head around why some here are so negative regarding Cruises resuming here in the U.S.  but fully support Cruising out of Europe, etc. and have Cruises booked to do so!  Sad!

 

These Cruise Lines need to resume Sailing!  The States where these Cruises sail from also need them to startup again.  https://www.portofgalveston.com/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=166

 

If some of you don’t want to Sail, then don’t!  Your choice!  

 

 

 

Some of us are negative on the cruise lines not working with CDC, yet work with the regulatory authorities in Germany, Italy, the UK and Singapore. Especially since the EU requirements are not that much different than the CDC requirements. The major difference is the US including test cruises to demonstrate that they have the new procedures down.

 

Well that and the Cruise line management being legally liable if they submit a plan and then fail to implement the plan as submitted.

 

Yet the cruise lines simply call for dropping the order instead of engaging with the CDC and actually work to get cruising again.

 

If they were to submit a plan and get approval then we would know exactly what the cruise lines are committed to do and that they could not change their approach without approval.  So one would know that if the plan called for everyone to be vaccinated the cruise line could not just decide to change the policy between booking and cruise date, or to have exceptions that are not public, etc.

 

 

[fatcat04]

11 minutes ago, nocl said:

Some of us are negative on the cruise lines not working with CDC, yet work with the regulatory authorities in Germany, Italy, the UK and Singapore. Especially since the EU requirements are not that much different than the CDC requirements. The major difference is the US including test cruises to demonstrate that they have the new procedures down.

 

Well that and the Cruise line management being legally liable if they submit a plan and then fail to implement the plan as submitted.

 

Yet the cruise lines simply call for dropping the order instead of engaging with the CDC and actually work to get cruising again.

 

If they were to submit a plan and get approval then we would know exactly what the cruise lines are committed to do and that they could not change their approach without approval.  So one would know that if the plan called for everyone to be vaccinated the cruise line could not just decide to change the policy between booking and cruise date, or to have exceptions that are not public, etc.

 

 

That the EU powers are easier to navigate in terms of logic driven true scientific data for a private corporation than the US scientific bureaucracy should give those of us in the US pause, don't you think? Science is science the world around, right? As many have said, I had every confidence in the CDC etc 2 years ago but goodness, now. It does worry me. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by fatcat04

[nocl]

39 minutes ago, fatcat04 said:

That the EU powers are easier to navigate in terms of logic driven true scientific data for a private corporation than the US scientific bureaucracy should give those of us in the US pause, don't you think? Science is science the world around, right? As many have said, I had every confidence in the CDC etc 2 years ago but goodness, now. It does worry me. 

Keep in mind that the cruises in Europe started with home country cruise lines for example Costa, an Italian company sailing out of Italy. Same situation in Germany. The US has now large home cruise lines.

 

Even now only German company lines sailing out Germany, only Italian out of Italy.

 

If you read the EU guidance it is in line with the CDC guidance. There are few differences outside of the test cruises.

 

The difference is that the cruise lines have refused to cooperate with the CDC from the start.

 

Back when the CDC set the rules for offloading crew the cruise line management refused to sign the document while telling the crews that CDC would not let them. They did sign the documents after delaying for several weeks.

 

When CDC wanted them to use charter flights they said it was too expensive but then RCL lines took their ships to Barbados where they sent crew home via the closed airport via charter flights.

 

A couple of primary differences between the EU and the CDC are:

 

1. Legal liability. Just as with the documents for crew transfer, the cruise lines management will be legally liable if they do not implement the plan as approved.

 

2. Health reporting. They took their ships out of US waters to avoid having to provide health information to the CDC after the passengers got off, when there were outbreaks among the crew on quite a few ships. The CDC is strict on wanting the health information and by the nature of the US system that information is generally public or accessable via FOI.

 

3. The main reason that I feel the cruise lines do not want to cooperate is because they want to exit the pandemic with no more regulatory requirements then when they entered the pandemic. The best way to do that is to not make any agreements with t he CDC that might create a precedent for expanded oversight by the CDC beyond the current VSP program.

[AFNavigator]

13 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I think the idea of government forced vaccinations is more of an invention of folks with an agenda rather then anything close to a fact.  Can anyone point to government mandated vaccinations in the USA or even a viable attempt to force vaccinations?  We think not.   What we may see with COVID vaccines is that some private businesses (such as airlines and cruise lines) will require vaccines as part of their requirements.  Private businesses have always had a lot of ability to do such a  thing and there is no US law that prohibits discrimination on the basis of vaccines of the lack thereof.  There are numerous examples of healthcare facilities (such as hospitals) mandating certain vaccines (i.e. flu shots, Tdap, etc) for their employees.

The US government may not mandate vaccines for adults going on leisure travel, but it does mandate an extensive list of vaccinations for US immigrants.  At the state level, there are countless vaccine mandates for preschool/school age children, college/university students, food service workers and, as stated, healthcare workers. 

 

Being former military, I can certainly say we had more than our fair share of mandatory vaccinations.  I think five different shots--of which some were multiple vaccines per shot--in one sitting was my record.  I guess those mandated vaccinations could be considered voluntary though because we all knew getting an array of vaccines was a condition of joining the military.

 

IMO, it is probably unlikely any mandates for COVID-19 vaccines will be issued at any government level until at least the time that the vaccine's approval status progresses beyond Emergency Use Authorization.  At that point, the vaccines probably will be added to the existing list of vaccinations mandatory for the categories listed above, but likely not for the general population.

[Hlitner]

5 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

You think WRONG...

 

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/can-covid-19-vaccines-be-mandatory-in-the-u-s-and-who-decides.html

 

I'm just surprised that you didn't already know this?

I had previously read that article and actually praised it here on CC.  I am also old enough to remember when we had to get Smallpox vaccinations.  But the truth is that even going that far back in history, the vaccines mandate amounted to a small fine for violators (I doubt you can find any example of when somebody actually paid the $5 fine).  What is probably more familiar to some older folks are the times when public schools mandated certain vaccines as a requirement for students to enroll.  But the truth is that those mandates had plenty of exceptions (such as for religious reasons) and many kids still avoided vaccinations.  In fact there were entire communities (one of the more famous being in NYC) that have consistently refused vaccinations.  But there was a time when you did need a Smallpox Vaccination Certificate for international travel to many places.  Even today folks need a Yellow Fever Vaccination Certificate for travel to certain countries.

 

But times have changed and I do not think you will see government mandated vaccinations although I do think that there will be mandates in the private sector (that will likely be challenged in court).    I spent much of my adult life working for a government agency in the healthcare sector and many of us favored a flu shot vaccine mandate (which would have saved the taxpayers a fortune).  Unlike COVID the flu vaccines were fully approved (none of the EUA issues).  But mandates never got out of the starting gate with many of our stake holders quickly citing "it is unamerican" as part of their objection.  One related observation is that although flu shots are only about 50% effective (it varies year to year) the saving to the public, with a mandate, would be in the $Billions with thousands of lives saved annually.  The savings from COVID Vaccine mandates (which are often more then 90% effective) would be substantially higher.

 

Hank

[KirkNC]

Ah yes, how much we are willing to pay to be American.

[GeorgesGal]

On 3/27/2021 at 1:09 PM, idiebabe said:

Good for DeSantis and the others who are working with him  on getting the Ships up and going from Florida. If one can fly into Nassau or St. Maarten for a Cruise from a U.S. City  then fly home after the Cruise to the U.S. City,  it seems very silly to not allow the Ships to Sail from the U.S. Ports.  Common Sense!  

 

 

 

 

Especially when some lines like NCLH's fleet are requiring all pax to be vaccinated as well as all crew.   C'mon, CDC, OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

[HappyInVan]

3 hours ago, GeorgesGal said:

Especially when some lines like NCLH's fleet are requiring all pax to be vaccinated as well as all crew.   C'mon, CDC, OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

 

So, why hasn't CCL committed to 100% vaccination? Can you explain that?

 

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/carnival-says-not-taking-stance-on-mandatory-covid-19-vaccinations-for-travelers-2021-04

 

BTW, CCL could be the odd man out if CDC actually comes to an agreement with NCL and RCL on vaccination. 

[Mary229]

14 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

So, why hasn't CCL committed to 100% vaccination? Can you explain that?

That's easy.  They want the government to do that so they don't have to be the big bad meanie to little children

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

CCL could be the odd man out if CDC actually comes to an agreement with NCL and RCL on vaccination. 

 

As I just stated on another post, it has been a bit of a mystery to me why CCL has been "out of synch" with NCLH and RCI with their previous attempts to convince the CDC that they are able to resume cruising.  

 

Like most--if not all--situations like this--there has to be a "back story" that "We, the People" will never know.  At least, in the near future.  

[rkacruiser]

3 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Did you notice how Florida didn't have any grounds to sue the Trump CDC, but does the Biden CDC?

 

But, I am unsure that politics has much to do with this.  Unless what I have learned is factually incorrect, Mr. Arison is a friend of former President Trump and he personally lobbied the President to allow for cruising to resume.  If so, we now know the effectiveness of whatever Mr. Arison may have done. 

[idiebabe]

4 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

Did you notice how Florida didn't have any grounds to sue the Trump CDC, but does the Biden CDC?

Why would he Sue Trump?  The Vaccine wasn’t given the EUA until December.  Trump was out-of-office in January.  Much has changed with so many Vaccinated and the Cases going down and it will only get better especially by the time Cruises resume.   
 

Either some of you had not heard Trump called DeSantis and urged him to allow the Zaandam to Dock.  Why has there been no mention  from Biden on Cruises resuming in the U.S.? If I missed it, then please post link of him actually saying it.   Has Biden been in touch with DeSantis or Abbot or the CDC?  
 

This is coming from the Points Guy and I have not seen any Official Statement but the Points Guy said that both Carnival and RCL required those evacuating from the Volcano to be Vaccinated.  If true, maybe a sign Carnival will require it. 
 

 

 

 

[OmarOak]

On 4/3/2021 at 10:44 AM, idiebabe said:

...cases are rising. again.

 

 

 

 

[geocruiser]

If the ships are allowed to sail from Florida again.  Will Florida allow a ship back into port if there are covid cases on board?  Will the local hospital care for these people?  Just a question.

[CruiserBruce]

2 hours ago, geocruiser said:

If the ships are allowed to sail from Florida again.  Will Florida allow a ship back into port if there are covid cases on board?  Will the local hospital care for these people?  Just a question.

And that is one of the issues the CDC is requiring the cruise lines to have written plans and agreements in regards to. And there has been no indication the cruise lines have met this requirement.

[idiebabe]

3 hours ago, geocruiser said:

If the ships are allowed to sail from Florida again.  Will Florida allow a ship back into port if there are covid cases on board?  Will the local hospital care for these people?  Just a question.

I don't know about the CDC but the Governor addressed this at the Roundtable and also in Interviews that I've seen that they will and are now better prepared for it.  What happened with the Zaandam was  Florida was just starting to get hit by the Virus itself and there was so much unknown.   We've come so far from March, 2020.  

 

This is where it's also important that when the Ships resume Cruises from U.S. Ports (or coming from other Countries to U.S. Ports) that it's required both Passengers and Crew be Vaccinated and follow the Protocols of Reduced Capacity, Mask Wearing, Social Distancing Onboard and mandatory Ship Excursions at least for startup.  If they do, that should prevent any Outbreaks of the Virus onboard.  IMO

[rkacruiser]

5 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

And that is one of the issues the CDC is requiring the cruise lines to have written plans and agreements in regards to. And there has been no indication the cruise lines have met this requirement.

 

That is not my understanding based on what I have read about the combined plans of RCI and NCL.  

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

That is not my understanding based on what I have read about the combined plans of RCI and NCL.  

What have you read about obtaining port and health department agreements and contracts with health care providers, transportation providers, and accommodation providers?  While the Healthy Sail Panel may have recommended these measures, I haven't seen any mention from the cruise lines that they have even started negotiations with the various entities to get signed agreements and contracts, which is what the CDC requires.

[rkacruiser]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

What have you read about obtaining port and health department agreements and contracts with health care providers, transportation providers, and accommodation providers?  While the Healthy Sail Panel may have recommended these measures, I haven't seen any mention from the cruise lines that they have even started negotiations with the various entities to get signed agreements and contracts, which is what the CDC requires.

 

I have read so darn much that it is difficult to specifically site a source.  NCL as well as RCCL seemed to say from what I read that if a Covid outbreak occurred on their ships, they were prepared to handle the situation on the ship and not depend on the resources ashore.  

 

Surely, I may be mistaken in what I interpreted from what I "think" I learned.  But, that is the basis for my post.  

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I have read so darn much that it is difficult to specifically site a source.  NCL as well as RCCL seemed to say from what I read that if a Covid outbreak occurred on their ships, they were prepared to handle the situation on the ship and not depend on the resources ashore.  

 

Surely, I may be mistaken in what I interpreted from what I "think" I learned.  But, that is the basis for my post.  

The CDC is requiring some ability to treat and quarantine onboard, but the plans and agreements are for more cases than the ship is capable of handling, such as those requiring respirators.

[Shmoo here]

11 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

if a Covid outbreak occurred on their ships, they were prepared to handle the situation on the ship and not depend on the resources ashore.  

Yeah, I'd want to be treated onboard a cruise ship if I get COVID.  They (the cruise lines) are always saying the medical facilities onboard the ship are just a urgent care type facility, not set up for medical emergencies.  How are they going to handle 200+ people who may require, ventilators, 24 hour nursing, and other necessary procedures for those who need it?

[rkacruiser]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The CDC is requiring some ability to treat and quarantine onboard, but the plans and agreements are for more cases than the ship is capable of handling, such as those requiring respirators.

 

6 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

Yeah, I'd want to be treated onboard a cruise ship if I get COVID.  They (the cruise lines) are always saying the medical facilities onboard the ship are just a urgent care type facility, not set up for medical emergencies.  How are they going to handle 200+ people who may require, ventilators, 24 hour nursing, and other necessary procedures for those who need it?

 

If all guests are vaccinated, if all crew are vaccinated, if all guests and crew go ashore in a "bubble" to areas that are as Covid free as can be determined, if all shore personnel who come aboard the ship for whatever duties--pilots, stevedores, etc.--are vaccinated, how much more can be done to make a ship a "Covid free bubble" than that?  

 

OK, let's assume a crew member or guest or whomever "strays" outside of that bubble and contracts Covid and requires medical care in excess of what the ship's medical staff can provide.  What is the difference in this situation as the guest/crew member who suffers a stroke/heart attack/whatever illness and requires emergency medical evacuation?  

[CruiserBruce]

4 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

OK, let's assume a crew member or guest or whomever "strays" outside of that bubble and contracts Covid and requires medical care in excess of what the ship's medical staff can provide.  What is the difference in this situation as the guest/crew member who suffers a stroke/heart attack/whatever illness and requires emergency medical evacuation?  

What's the difference? Well, one is a highly contagious disease that can require vast amounts of resources, like ventilators, ICU bed time and staff. One that doesn't have a well defined treatment protocol.