Florida Looking to Push Back Against CDC

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

What is the difference in this situation as the guest/crew member who suffers a stroke/heart attack/whatever illness and requires emergency medical evacuation?

To be honest with you, I believe that this is part of the CDC's intention, is to have permanent contracts with health care providers to treat all cruise ship patients, instead of unloading them on the local hospitals.

 

And, not all cruise lines have signed off on the totally vaccinated crew and pax scenario.

Edited April 11, 2021 by chengkp75

[nocl]

25 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

 

If all guests are vaccinated, if all crew are vaccinated, if all guests and crew go ashore in a "bubble" to areas that are as Covid free as can be determined, if all shore personnel who come aboard the ship for whatever duties--pilots, stevedores, etc.--are vaccinated, how much more can be done to make a ship a "Covid free bubble" than that?  

 

OK, let's assume a crew member or guest or whomever "strays" outside of that bubble and contracts Covid and requires medical care in excess of what the ship's medical staff can provide.  What is the difference in this situation as the guest/crew member who suffers a stroke/heart attack/whatever illness and requires emergency medical evacuation?  

If the chance of needing the facilities described in the agreement is as low as you describe and the scope of those facilities is based upon anticipated need agreed upon by both the cruise line and the respective port the cost and difficulty in making such arrangements should be pretty low.  So why are the cruise lines not actively pursuing getting them in place?

 

Clearly it is a bit different than the normal cruise line approach of once a problem is off of the ship it is no longer their problem.

[rkacruiser]

20 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

To be honest with you, I believe that this is part of the CDC's intention, is to have permanent contracts with health care providers to treat all cruise ship patients, instead of unloading them on the local hospitals.

 

 

If this were to come to pass, this would be a most beneficial benefit that we may experience from this pandemic for those of us who cruise.

[Shmoo here]

27 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

What is the difference in this situation as the guest/crew member who suffers a stroke/heart attack/whatever illness and requires emergency medical evacuation?  

Because a heart attack/stroke/whatever is not a highly contagious disease that can kill perfectly healthy people.

 

That's the point, currently, any medical emergencies are debarked in the next available port, in most cases.  The CDC just wants proof that a COVID infected person (or persons) will not stop the ship from porting and moving such people into hospital care.

[Shmoo here]

double post

Edited April 11, 2021 by Shmoo here

[harkinmr]

21 hours ago, idiebabe said:

Why would he Sue Trump?  The Vaccine wasn’t given the EUA until December.  Trump was out-of-office in January.  Much has changed with so many Vaccinated and the Cases going down and it will only get better especially by the time Cruises resume.   
 

Either some of you had not heard Trump called DeSantis and urged him to allow the Zaandam to Dock.  Why has there been no mention  from Biden on Cruises resuming in the U.S.? If I missed it, then please post link of him actually saying it.   Has Biden been in touch with DeSantis or Abbot or the CDC?  
 

This is coming from the Points Guy and I have not seen any Official Statement but the Points Guy said that both Carnival and RCL required those evacuating from the Volcano to be Vaccinated.  If true, maybe a sign Carnival will require it. 
 

 

 

 

Carnival and RCL did not require those evacuating to be vaccinated.  That requirement was made by St. Lucia and Barbados in return for accepting evacuees.  RCL did say that they required a negative COVID test to board evacuees.  There is no indication at this point that Carnival will impose a vaccine requirement to cruise.  In fact Arnold Donald does not support the idea.  I think that will leave Carnival (and any of the other CCL brands) behind the pack.  The Biden administration will not interfere in the CDC's decision regarding the restart of cruising.  That statement was put out yesterday, and is as it should be.  The Trump administration interfered with the extension of the no sail order last Fall, which ultimately ended up with the Conditional Sailing Order, which is more complex than the no sail order ever was.  So people should be careful what they wish for.

[idiebabe]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

Carnival and RCL did not require those evacuating to be vaccinated.  That requirement was made by St. Lucia and Barbados in return for accepting evacuees.  RCL did say that they required a negative COVID test to board evacuees.  There is no indication at this point that Carnival will impose a vaccine requirement to cruise.  In fact Arnold Donald does not support the idea.  I think that will leave Carnival (and any of the other CCL brands) behind the pack.  

I had heard that today that it wasn’t the Cruise Lines who required it but the Countries.  This is why I had noted that I had not seen any statement from the Cruise Lines but saw it by The Points Guy.  We can’t always believe what we read (especially today)!  
 

Reality is until Carnival Corp. makes an Official Announcement none of us know if they will follow NCL, RCL, etc. and require the Vaccine.   It’s a Wait and See!  
 

I haven’t seen any recent interviews with Arnold Donald in weeks,  I have seen Christine Duffy’s Interview where she said they hadn’t made a decision.  Can you please post the link for Arnold Donald’s recent one?  Tx

[nocl]

11 minutes ago, idiebabe said:

I had heard that today that it wasn’t the Cruise Lines who required it but the Countries.  This is why I had noted that I had not seen any statement from the Cruise Lines but saw it by The Points Guy.  We can’t always believe what we read (especially today)!  
 

Reality is until Carnival Corp. makes an Official Announcement none of us know if they will follow NCL, RCL, etc. and require the Vaccine.   It’s a Wait and See!  
 

I haven’t seen any recent interviews with Arnold Donald in weeks,  I have seen Christine Duffy’s Interview where she said they hadn’t made a decision.  Can you please post the link for Arnold Donald’s recent one?  Tx

Arnold Donald had a couple of different interviews this past week including on CNBC.  He was very non-committal to the idea of requiring vaccination.  He basically left it as we will do what is required by the countries we cruise to.

[harkinmr]

5 minutes ago, idiebabe said:

I had heard that today that it wasn’t the Cruise Lines who required it but the Countries.  This is why I had noted that I had not seen any statement from the Cruise Lines but saw it by The Points Guy.  We can’t always believe what we read (especially today)!  
 

Reality is until Carnival Corp. makes an Official Announcement none of us know if they will follow NCL, RCL, etc. and require the Vaccine.   It’s a Wait and See!  
 

I haven’t seen any recent interviews with Arnold Donald in weeks,  I have seen Christine Duffy’s Interview where she said they hadn’t made a decision.  Can you please post the link for Arnold Donald’s recent one?  Tx

I don’t have a link at my fingertips, but he was interviewed several times and quoted as saying no decision had been made but he did not believe that Carnival’s US market would support a vaccine requirement.  I saw a transcript of his investor call the other day and vaccines were supposed to be a topic for the call. They were not addressed as far as I could tell. Honestly, I think he might draw a distinction between Carnival cruises and lines like Holland and Princess.  But, in my view, there should be no distinction when it comes to vaccines. Ultimately I think his hand will be forced by circumstances. 

[AtleeH]

On 3/27/2021 at 5:28 AM, ski ww said:

I think going against the advice of medical professionals is just asking for trouble.

The folks at CDC are bureaucrats, not professional doctors.  The "guidance" from CDC and from Fauci has changed as much as the wind changes direction.

[CruiserBruce]

2 hours ago, AtleeH said:

The folks at CDC are bureaucrats, not professional doctors.  The "guidance" from CDC and from Fauci has changed as much as the wind changes direction.

Name one who is not a doctor.

 

People who have managed large scale emergencies know that things change. It is almost never a straight line from beginning to end. Too many people think managing emergencies are simple as building a plan and sticking to it. Far, far from the truth.

[HappyInVan]

5 hours ago, AtleeH said:

The folks at CDC are bureaucrats, not professional doctors.  The "guidance" from CDC and from Fauci has changed as much as the wind changes direction.

 

The important thing is that they actually read and comprehend the latest field reports and analytical studies. Tom, Dick and donkeys don't! 

 

Let me offer this insight. Intelligent people learn quickly form their mistakes. Foolish people blame others. 🙄

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

People who have managed large scale emergencies know that things change.

Even small scale emergencies.  In shipboard emergencies the thing I learned hard and early was that you need to be flexible in your response.  As von Moltke said "no plan survives contact with the enemy".

[cruisemom42]

33 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Let me offer this insight. Intelligent people learn quickly form their mistakes. Foolish people blame others.

 

There is a reason why top companies looking for talent stress the quality of Agility. As opposed to pure stubborn pig-headedness. 

 

When you're in a position like the CDC was, dealing with a pandemic with a previously unknown virus, you don't have the luxury of waiting until you have 100% of the data you need to "know" everything. I think many of the Monday-morning quarterbackers here forget what it was like during the first couple of months of the pandemic last year...  People were dying, the virus was spreading quickly, it was all hands on deck.

 

Faced with this, CDC and other agencies made recommendations based on the available knowledge. But like good scientists, when they gathered more data, they modified their model/hypotheses and offered new recommendations. 

 

I completely fail to understand why people latch onto this as if it were a BAD thing. Did no one pay attention in science class in school when we were taught the steps of the scientific method?

 

[idiebabe]

5 hours ago, Heartgrove said:

 

I guess that we forget about the former president not wanting the Grand Princess to dock in the San Francisco area in March 2020. 

 

 "I like the numbers being where they are. I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault," Trump said in a Fox News interview. 

 

But Trump said that he left the decision to the experts even though he disagreed with them.

 

"It wasn't the fault of the people on the ship either, ok? It wasn't their fault either, and they're mostly American, so I can live either way with it," he added. "I would rather have them stay on personally, but I fully understand if they want to take them off. I gave them the authority to make the decision."

 

The quarantine that the former president imposed on the Grand Princess was described as being inhumane as it allowed the virus to pick off passengers one by one.

I remember that Interview and, IIRC, he was actually at the CDC and Redfield and other Health Officials were present.  Yes, his preference was to have them Quarantine on the Ship to avoid further spread of the Virus but left it up to the authorities.  The Ship was delayed Debarking Passengers and further delayed due to Testing, etc. and Newsom received some bad Press for that.  Were either one of them wrong?  IMO, no. 

 

I remember watching the Daily Reports with David Able on the Diamond Princess.  David and his Wife are Brits.  The Americans were the first to be evacuated to the Credit of the State Department and the Trump Administration.  The CDC was against it.  If you recall, those Passengers ended up being Quarantined in Housing on several of the Bases.  

 

There was so much unknown about the Virus at the time and, I believe, everyone was trying to make the best decisions under the circumstances so not to spread the Virus.   Sadly, this Virus became Political due to it being an Election year!  

[Heartgrove]

39 minutes ago, idiebabe said:

I remember that Interview and, IIRC, he was actually at the CDC and Redfield and other Health Officials were present.  Yes, his preference was to have them Quarantine on the Ship to avoid further spread of the Virus but left it up to the authorities. 

 

The passengers had already been quarantined for a month at that point. 

[ontheweb]

5 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

There is a reason why top companies looking for talent stress the quality of Agility. As opposed to pure stubborn pig-headedness. 

 

When you're in a position like the CDC was, dealing with a pandemic with a previously unknown virus, you don't have the luxury of waiting until you have 100% of the data you need to "know" everything. I think many of the Monday-morning quarterbackers here forget what it was like during the first couple of months of the pandemic last year...  People were dying, the virus was spreading quickly, it was all hands on deck.

 

Faced with this, CDC and other agencies made recommendations based on the available knowledge. But like good scientists, when they gathered more data, they modified their model/hypotheses and offered new recommendations. 

 

I completely fail to understand why people latch onto this as if it were a BAD thing. Did no one pay attention in science class in school when we were taught the steps of the scientific method?

 

You know why people are still criticizing the CDC; they are not being allowed on cruise ships departing from the USA.

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, idiebabe said:

The Americans were the first to be evacuated to the Credit of the State Department and the Trump Administration.  The CDC was against it.

 

The CDC was not against evacuation in general. What they did not agree with was putting positive but asymptomatic COVID passengers on the same plane with passengers who were COVID negative. 

[john2003]

6 hours ago, ontheweb said:

You know why people are still criticizing the CDC; they are not being allowed on cruise ships departing from the USA.

Perhaps because there is still a  active pandemic? Even in the US. 

[HappyInVan]

Guys,

 

Covid doesn't travel solo. It can't book a seat and hop on a plane. It must travel with a host. All the traveling done in the last 6 months has enabled variants to reach distance shores.

 

Now that vax-resistant variants are circulating, we must do our utmost to avoid spreading those around. Think about what it would mean if covid achieves 'immune escape'.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_escape

 

The international travel industries would shut down. The cruise industry would collapse. And, that would be the least of our problems.

 

Here's the important thing. The CDC had a reason to extend the Conditional Sailing Order to November 2021. Hopefully, the CDC will have enough good news this August to sound the all-clear. Just enough time for the companies to have their ships ready in October.

 

Stick to the plan. Don't take shortcuts.

[ontheweb]

5 hours ago, john2003 said:

Perhaps because there is still a  active pandemic? Even in the US. 

Yes, I understand that. The virus is the problem; the CDC is the scapegoat.

[KroozNut]

7 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Stick to the plan. Don't take shortcuts.

 

Problem is that 'the plan' keeps changing.. 😏

[CruiserBruce]

42 minutes ago, KroozNut said:

 

Problem is that 'the plan' keeps changing.. 😏

Because that is what complex emergencies require. There is rarely just one unaltered plan that goes from start to finish in the real world.

[HappyInVan]

3 hours ago, KroozNut said:

 

Problem is that 'the plan' keeps changing.. 😏

 

The program is unchanged...

 

(a) get covid under control, (B) develop vax, (c) vaccinate, (d) assess effectiveness, (e) do all of the above if insufficient.

 

What has changed is the schedule. Vaccines are ready much earlier than anticipated. But, covid already has variants to counter our vaccines. We mustn't reopen our borders too soon. Covid and its growing family of variants are just waiting to slip through.

 

This is reality, not a reality show.

 

The problem for the disease experts is that covid19 forgot to attach a CV when it took the job in Wuhan. We don't know its history. Where its been? The battles it fought, and the wars it had won.

 

We can only understand its potential when it shows its hand. SARS faded after just 3 months. The Spanish Flu had a good run, but disappeared in year 2.

 

Unfortunately, covid19 is no 100 pound weakling. I didn't have a science education. What does it mean when antibodies show a 12 fold decrease? Is that a reduction to 10%?

 

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210309/s-african-variant-challenges-pfizer-moderna-vaccines

 

 

[Tampa Girl]

On 4/10/2021 at 8:29 PM, Shmoo here said:

Because a heart attack/stroke/whatever is not a highly contagious disease that can kill perfectly healthy people.

 

That's the point, currently, any medical emergencies are debarked in the next available port, in most cases.  The CDC just wants proof that a COVID infected person (or persons) will not stop the ship from porting and moving such people into hospital care.

 

I don't see how a cruise line can show such proof.  It is up to the host country whether or not they will accept an infected passenger, and whatever criteria is being used by that country could change in a flash.