New updates (5/12/21) to the CSO Operations Manual for Simulated and Restricted Voyages

[srpilo]

24 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

US isn't alone - UK loosening up to.  Canada remains in the dark ages bringing up the rear - as usual, unfortunately.

 

People of the World who get vaccinated cannot be expected to be held hostage ad nauseum by those who choose not to get vaccinated.  People don't wear masks to protect against coughs, colds, the flu.  

 

That said, you and anyone else are welcome to continue wearing masks to infinity and beyond.

 

Your characterization of a cruise ship as a "breeding ground" for Covid is unfounded when virtually all of the indications thus far are going towards almost total vaccinated crew and passengers.

 

 

Plus 1

The time for fear mongering is past

[oskidunker]

2 hours ago, srpilo said:

 

Plus 1

The time for fear mongering is past

You couldn’t haves said  it any better. 

[Redwing55]

Wow, tons of misinformation here about the vaccine and masks.  So many are claiming speculation as absolute fact.  The fear mongering apparently is succeeding for some of our cruising brethren.  Wearing a mask after vaccination has not been demonstrated to matter much.  One MAY think so, but there are no studies on this.  AND for that matter, initial experiences have demonstrated that vaccinated persons are not contributing much, if at all with the spread.  

 

So, based on the above, masks for the vaccinated are an overreach.  And if one can't get vaccinated (for whatever reason), one will need to reduce the potential for exposure.   Unfortunately, that may include cruising.

[caribill]

4 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

 People don't wear masks to protect against coughs, colds, the flu.  

 

 

 

Yet with all the Covid-19 precautions including wearing masks, the flu season this past year was almost non-existent.

[Steelers36]

2 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

Yet with all the Covid-19 precautions including wearing masks, the flu season this past year was almost non-existent.

Right, but before Covid, people in N.A. didn't go around wearing masks when they had a cough or whatever.

 

[caribill]

53 minutes ago, Redwing55 said:

 AND for that matter, initial experiences have demonstrated that vaccinated persons are not contributing much, if at all with the spread.  

 

 

Singapore has found that (a) vaccinated people can catch the virus; and (b) can spread it to others, both vaccinated and unvaccinated:

 

SINGAPORE — Singapore said on Friday that it would ban dining in restaurants and gatherings of more than two people to try to stem a rise in coronavirus cases, becoming the latest Asian nation to reintroduce restrictions after keeping the illness mostly in check for months.

 

The new measures came after the city-state recorded 34 new cases on Thursday, a small number by global standards, but part of a rise in infections traced to vaccinated workers at Singapore Changi Airport.

 

The airport outbreak began with an 88-year-old member of the airport cleaning crew who was fully vaccinated but who tested positive for the virus on May 5. Co-workers who then became infected later visited an airport food court, where they transmitted the virus to other customers, officials said.

 

None of the cases linked to the airport outbreak are believed to have resulted in critical illness or death, according to officials.

 

In all, 46 cases have been traced to the airport, the largest of about 10 clusters of new infections in the country.

 

“Because we do not know how far the transmission has occurred into the community, we do have to take further, more stringent restrictions,” said Lawrence Wong, co-chair of Singapore’s coronavirus task force. The measures will be in effect for about one month beginning on Sunday.

 

According to preliminary testing, many of those infected were working in a zone of the airport that received flights from high-risk countries, including from South Asia. Several have tested positive for the B.1.617 variant first detected in India, which the World Health Organization has said might be more contagious than most versions of the coronavirus.

 

Singapore health officials said that of 28 airport workers who became infected, 19 were fully vaccinated with either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, the only two approved for use in Singapore.

 

“Unfortunately, this mutant virus, very virulent, broke through the layers of defense,” Transport Minister Ong Ye Kung told a virtual news conference on Friday.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/world/asia/singapore-covid-restrictions.html? 

 

 

 

[Redwing55]

9 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Singapore has found that (a) vaccinated people can catch the virus; and (b) can spread it to others, both vaccinated and unvaccinated:

 

SINGAPORE — Singapore said on Friday that it would ban dining in restaurants and gatherings of more than two people to try to stem a rise in coronavirus cases, becoming the latest Asian nation to reintroduce restrictions after keeping the illness mostly in check for months.

 

The new measures came after the city-state recorded 34 new cases on Thursday, a small number by global standards, but part of a rise in infections traced to vaccinated workers at Singapore Changi Airport.

 

The airport outbreak began with an 88-year-old member of the airport cleaning crew who was fully vaccinated but who tested positive for the virus on May 5. Co-workers who then became infected later visited an airport food court, where they transmitted the virus to other customers, officials said.

 

None of the cases linked to the airport outbreak are believed to have resulted in critical illness or death, according to officials.

 

In all, 46 cases have been traced to the airport, the largest of about 10 clusters of new infections in the country.

 

“Because we do not know how far the transmission has occurred into the community, we do have to take further, more stringent restrictions,” said Lawrence Wong, co-chair of Singapore’s coronavirus task force. The measures will be in effect for about one month beginning on Sunday.

 

According to preliminary testing, many of those infected were working in a zone of the airport that received flights from high-risk countries, including from South Asia. Several have tested positive for the B.1.617 variant first detected in India, which the World Health Organization has said might be more contagious than most versions of the coronavirus.

 

Singapore health officials said that of 28 airport workers who became infected, 19 were fully vaccinated with either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, the only two approved for use in Singapore.

 

“Unfortunately, this mutant virus, very virulent, broke through the layers of defense,” Transport Minister Ong Ye Kung told a virtual news conference on Friday.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/world/asia/singapore-covid-restrictions.html? 

 

 

 

Singapore... what vaccine?   And the recent policy of the CDC supports my point... if vaccinated live without a mask.  Yes SOME transmission may occur.  But, it's likely so low that the flu in prior years was a bigger impact... Did most people wear masks then?  There are all sorts of risks out there.  Stay home... oh wait there's even risk in that.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Redwing55

[Ken the cruiser]

10 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Singapore has found that (a) vaccinated people can catch the virus; and (b) can spread it to others, both vaccinated and unvaccinated:

 

SINGAPORE — Singapore said on Friday that it would ban dining in restaurants and gatherings of more than two people to try to stem a rise in coronavirus cases, becoming the latest Asian nation to reintroduce restrictions after keeping the illness mostly in check for months.

 

The new measures came after the city-state recorded 34 new cases on Thursday, a small number by global standards, but part of a rise in infections traced to vaccinated workers at Singapore Changi Airport.

 

The airport outbreak began with an 88-year-old member of the airport cleaning crew who was fully vaccinated but who tested positive for the virus on May 5. Co-workers who then became infected later visited an airport food court, where they transmitted the virus to other customers, officials said.

 

None of the cases linked to the airport outbreak are believed to have resulted in critical illness or death, according to officials.

 

In all, 46 cases have been traced to the airport, the largest of about 10 clusters of new infections in the country.

 

“Because we do not know how far the transmission has occurred into the community, we do have to take further, more stringent restrictions,” said Lawrence Wong, co-chair of Singapore’s coronavirus task force. The measures will be in effect for about one month beginning on Sunday.

 

According to preliminary testing, many of those infected were working in a zone of the airport that received flights from high-risk countries, including from South Asia. Several have tested positive for the B.1.617 variant first detected in India, which the World Health Organization has said might be more contagious than most versions of the coronavirus.

 

Singapore health officials said that of 28 airport workers who became infected, 19 were fully vaccinated with either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, the only two approved for use in Singapore.

 

“Unfortunately, this mutant virus, very virulent, broke through the layers of defense,” Transport Minister Ong Ye Kung told a virtual news conference on Friday.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/world/asia/singapore-covid-restrictions.html? 

 

Here's an article released back in mid April covering the CDC's latest findings regarding this issue.

 

CDC reports 5,800 breakthrough COVID-19 infections in people who were vaccinated. Doctors say, 'Don't panic.' (aol.com)

 

[mcrcruiser]

On 5/12/2021 at 1:09 PM, ProfMHC said:

additional information here:
 

https://cruisefever.net/cdc-updates-rules-on-wearing-masks-on-cruises/?fbclid=IwAR2x8WxseG5lzujZCMK7PU0puAG-G8GcD-CiwGO_76B_6PUbemxXv2x1B3M

Can we just imagine being pool side getting the rays & then having a mask out line  ones face  when it comes off . LOL 😆

[mcrcruiser]

10 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Singapore has found that (a) vaccinated people can catch the virus; and (b) can spread it to others, both vaccinated and unvaccinated:

 

SINGAPORE — Singapore said on Friday that it would ban dining in restaurants and gatherings of more than two people to try to stem a rise in coronavirus cases, becoming the latest Asian nation to reintroduce restrictions after keeping the illness mostly in check for months.

 

The new measures came after the city-state recorded 34 new cases on Thursday, a small number by global standards, but part of a rise in infections traced to vaccinated workers at Singapore Changi Airport.

 

The airport outbreak began with an 88-year-old member of the airport cleaning crew who was fully vaccinated but who tested positive for the virus on May 5. Co-workers who then became infected later visited an airport food court, where they transmitted the virus to other customers, officials said.

 

None of the cases linked to the airport outbreak are believed to have resulted in critical illness or death, according to officials.

 

In all, 46 cases have been traced to the airport, the largest of about 10 clusters of new infections in the country.

 

“Because we do not know how far the transmission has occurred into the community, we do have to take further, more stringent restrictions,” said Lawrence Wong, co-chair of Singapore’s coronavirus task force. The measures will be in effect for about one month beginning on Sunday.

 

According to preliminary testing, many of those infected were working in a zone of the airport that received flights from high-risk countries, including from South Asia. Several have tested positive for the B.1.617 variant first detected in India, which the World Health Organization has said might be more contagious than most versions of the coronavirus.

 

Singapore health officials said that of 28 airport workers who became infected, 19 were fully vaccinated with either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, the only two approved for use in Singapore.

 

“Unfortunately, this mutant virus, very virulent, broke through the layers of defense,” Transport Minister Ong Ye Kung told a virtual news conference on Friday.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/world/asia/singapore-covid-restrictions.html? 

 

 

 

However ,not US  ,FDA EUA vaccines  .Who knows what  these people got vaccinated with ?

[caribill]

1 hour ago, Redwing55 said:

Singapore... what vaccine? 

 

Good question.

 

In the case of the eight New York Yankees players and staff it was J&J. 62% effectiveness is not as good as 95% effectiveness.

 

However, They have been effective at avoiding hospitalization and death for the vaccinated even if not effective in stopping the spread.

[K.T.B.]

15 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

US isn't alone - UK loosening up to.  Canada remains in the dark ages bringing up the rear - as usual, unfortunately.

 

People of the World who get vaccinated cannot be expected to be held hostage ad nauseum by those who choose not to get vaccinated.  People don't wear masks to protect against coughs, colds, the flu.  

 

That said, you and anyone else are welcome to continue wearing masks to infinity and beyond.

 

Your characterization of a cruise ship as a "breeding ground" for Covid is unfounded when virtually all of the indications thus far are going towards almost total vaccinated crew and passengers.

 

 

Re: the red line I highlighted.

 

YES, they do.  The Japanese have been doing this for years, especially while flying.  It just hasn't taken hold worldwide until the pandemic hit.  By the way, this past flu season had the fewest cases and deaths since they've been tracking it.  The hospital rate was only  0.7 per 100,000 people. Masks work.

[Steelers36]

6 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Re: the red line I highlighted.

 

YES, they do.  The Japanese have been doing this for years, especially while flying.  It just hasn't taken hold worldwide until the pandemic hit.  By the way, this past flu season had the fewest cases and deaths since they've been tracking it.  The hospital rate was only  0.7 per 100,000 people. Masks work.

I am somewhat aware of that (Japan).  I should have added a clause that I was referencing North America (but could have included Europe, etc) as it might not have been obvious in the context.  It's always easy to throw out an exception case. 

 

[nocl]

53 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

However ,not US  ,FDA EUA vaccines  .Who knows what  these people got vaccinated with ?

Both Moderna and Pfizer are approved for and being used in Singapore.  According to the Singapore Covid web site they are the only two listed as being approved for use there.

 

What is also important is that it appears that the strain is B.1.617 the same strain that is currently hitting India so strongly. Have not seen any publications concerning efficacy of Moderna or Pfizer against that strain.  B.1.617 appears to be more contagious than the B.117 UK strain which is more infectious than the original strain.

Edited May 15, 2021 by nocl

[caribill]

Hundreds of Epidemiologists Expected Mask-Wearing in Public for at Least a Year

 

The C.D.C. said Thursday that vaccinated Americans no longer needed masks in most places. Other disease experts recently had a different message: that masks were necessary in public.

 

When federal health officials said on Thursday that fully vaccinated Americans no longer needed to wear masks in most places, it came as a surprise to many people in public health. It also was a stark contrast with the views of a large majority of epidemiologists surveyed in the last two weeks by The New York Times.

 

In the informal survey, 80 percent said they thought Americans would need to wear masks in public indoor places for at least another year. Just 5 percent said people would no longer need to wear masks indoors by this summer.

 

In large crowds outdoors, like at a concert or protest, 88 percent of the epidemiologists said it was necessary even for fully vaccinated people to wear masks.

 

“Unless the vaccination rates increase to 80 or 90 percent over the next few months, we should wear masks in large public indoor settings,” said Vivian Towe, a program officer at the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute.

 

full article at

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/upshot/epidemiologists-coronavirus-masks.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20210515

[voljeep]

6 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

In large crowds outdoors, like at a concert or protest,

Protest - did they say Protest - are they talking about Protest ?

 

seems a 'strange' pick of 'crowds'

[Redwing55]

2 hours ago, caribill said:

Hundreds of Epidemiologists Expected Mask-Wearing in Public for at Least a Year

 

The C.D.C. said Thursday that vaccinated Americans no longer needed masks in most places. Other disease experts recently had a different message: that masks were necessary in public.

 

..........

 

“Unless the vaccination rates increase to 80 or 90 percent over the next few months, we should wear masks in large public indoor settings,” said Vivian Towe, a program officer at the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute.

 

full article at

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/upshot/epidemiologists-coronavirus-masks.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20210515

Consider the source and the make up.  I'm not sure these Epidemiologists have the depth to actually make the best determinations.  Yes, some are competent to make that call, but much can be done with data interpretation (if it even exists) and how humans behave.  Not only that, just because one is in a career, it doesn't make them experts in everything.  A heart doctor may not know much about treating a liver disease.  A chemical engineer may be an expert on making urethane but have little current knowledge on how to get ethylene.  I could go on, but the media does this quite often.  Do you want to be taught a high level history class by a math professor?

 

And FWIW, many a times the NYTs seems to have their own agenda... other than reporting accurate news.

[K.T.B.]

3 hours ago, voljeep said:

Protest - did they say Protest - are they talking about Protest ?

 

seems a 'strange' pick of 'crowds'

 

Well, those were pretty much the only crowds last year....  

[caribill]

1 hour ago, Redwing55 said:

Consider the source and the make up.  I'm not sure these Epidemiologists have the depth to actually make the best determinations.  Yes, some are competent to make that call, but much can be done with data interpretation (if it even exists) and how humans behave.  Not only that, just because one is in a career, it doesn't make them experts in everything.  A heart doctor may not know much about treating a liver disease.  A chemical engineer may be an expert on making urethane but have little current knowledge on how to get ethylene.

 

Having the training and ability to make these kind of determinations is the definition of epidemiologists. That is the specialty trained for this type work.

 

Epidemiologist: "a person who studies or is an expert in the branch of medicine which deals with the incidence, distribution, and possible control of diseases."

 

Most physicians have very little training in epidemiology, often less than four hours in their years in medical school. 
 

[By The Bay]

6 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

However ,not US  ,FDA EUA vaccines  .Who knows what  these people got vaccinated with ?

"Singapore health officials said that of 28 airport workers who became infected, 19 were fully vaccinated with either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, the only two approved for use in Singapore."

[pcur]

On 5/14/2021 at 11:43 AM, Steelers36 said:

You cannot make these broad statements like they are 100% factual.  

 

You can pick up the virus even if wearing a mask because the mask is not the totally effective shield you seem to think it is.

As for vaccination, the learned science is that it is small chances to pick up and transmit a virus once fully vaccinated.

You claim you are "knowingly transmitting" without a mask.  I am not sure if you are vaccinated or not, but you are not knowingly transmitting unless you are Covid-19 positive and able to transmit active virus.  It doesn't mean for sure you are transmitting virus simply by the fact of not wearing a mask. 

 

It just isn't so black & white as you imply and chances are quite low if vaccinated.  I guess you know more than the CDC.

 

Actually, I quoted from one source directly, and I reread the CDC announcement before posting again.

 

The point I was trying to make is not wearing a mask is a deliberate decision to pass viruses along IF you have contracted it, and the latest CDC statement says they aren't sure yet.  So, yes, it's knowing you could do this, and then going ahead and not protect others in case you are carrying.

 

Never said anywhere in this or any other thread that I know more than the CDC.  You're just not in agreement with what I'm saying and feel, for some reason, it's necessary to get sarcastic and unpleasant about it.

 

I always wonder why people cannot stay civil with a debate, which is what this is.  

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by pcur

[Steelers36]

3 minutes ago, pcur said:

Actually, I quoted from one source directly, and I reread the CDC announcement before posting again.

 

The point I was trying to make is not wearing a mask is a deliberate decision to pass viruses along IF you have contracted it, and the latest CDC statement says they aren't sure yet.  So, yes, it's knowing you could do this, and then going ahead and not protect others in case you are carrying.

 

Never said anywhere in this or any other thread that I know more than the CDC.  You're just not in agreement with what I'm saying and feel, for some reason, it's necessary to get sarcastic and unpleasant about it.

 

I always wonder why people cannot stay civil with a debate, which is what this is.  

 

Point taken.  My last sentence about you and CDC was presumptuous.

[AZjohn]

2 hours ago, pcur said:

I always wonder why people cannot stay civil with a debate, which is what this is.  

For those people like that, there is a nice feature on here call "ignore user". Never have to read that persons garbage again 🙂

[Ombud]

A couple of eye-openers from your link:

#1 - and most surprising:

On 5/14/2021 at 10:36 PM, caribill said:

88-year-old member of the airport cleaning crew

But back to the topic:

On 5/14/2021 at 10:36 PM, caribill said:

34 new cases ....... None of the cases linked to the airport outbreak are believed to have resulted in critical illness or death

The vaccines were 94% effective against hospitalization and death so it looks like they worked. Ppl got sick but not sick enough to be hospitalized

[Ombud]

On 5/14/2021 at 1:09 PM, HappyInVan said:

there is a (minimal) real risk that vax people will infect non-vax people who ignore the masking recommendation.

I agree 100% but everyone over 11 who wants a vaccine can get one on a walk in basis. Furthermore I cannot force a non-vax person to get vaccinated or wear a mask.  But I'm 2 months after mine so I didn't wear it in SF today along with everyone else at Crissy Fields and only wore it at Fisherman's Wharf. Out here in the suburbs I just wear it in stores and when sitting in parklets waiting for my food. 

 

When a non-vaccinated person decides to not wear a useless mask (and most of those sold at Target / Macys / grocers are useless) they assume the risk. Get vaxed or sequester forever. Covid's not completely going away, we have to learn to live with it

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Ombud