Cruise Org's Response to 100 Day Suspension

[sakigemcam]

Sent to me by my beloved TA 

 

https://cruising.org/news-and-research/press-room/2020/april/clia-statement-regarding-no-sail-order?fbclid=IwAR1FOFhqhVDCF-K8hVUqYQJS7KColHBAwv-dJItxsl5DZvtVrqWr6UQ_Tvs

Edited April 11, 2020 by sakigemcam
typo

[cluso]

11 minutes ago, sakigemcam said:

Sent to me by my beloved TA 

 

https://cruising.org/news-and-research/press-room/2020/april/clia-statement-regarding-no-sail-order?fbclid=IwAR1FOFhqhVDCF-K8hVUqYQJS7KColHBAwv-dJItxsl5DZvtVrqWr6UQ_Tvs

 

Please say something about this article instead of making cruisers just download it.  Thank you!

[LMaxwell]

3 minutes ago, cluso said:

 

Please say something about this article instead of making cruisers just download it.  Thank you!

It says cruises put a lot of money into the economy so would news agencies please just leave them alone.  Zero new requirements addressed. It reads like a high school sophomore wrote it for an assignment due after homeroom 

[az_tchr]

Simply complaining that the requirements are unfairly targeting the cruiselines will not get much sympathy with those that make the laws in the US and elsewhere.

I suspect that while some relaxation of the stay at home orders will happen over the coming months it surely seems events where large numbers of people congregate - especially coming from all over a country or the entire World - will be not allowed until beyond 100 days.

Our state universities are making plans to continue with only online classes to at least open school in September.  A similar incubator to a cruise ship.  I think that says something we all need to consider.

CLIA comes off very poorly.  No addressing of the issues of cruising.  Heck, they have no real viable plan even to get crew members home safely.

Edited April 11, 2020 by az_tchr

[HS2BS]

These companies have no standings in the US as they pay no taxes here and are registered as foreign businesses. The reply sounds that they are whining!

 

Hal

[hcat]

Wonder how much cruise lines pay in port fees?

Seems  like a  small amount on our invoices but it must add up to quite alot...

 

Don't know enough about the organization to comment on their positions...assume it is a trade organization that promotes interests of its members and deal with issues in common????

Edited April 12, 2020 by hcat

[NutsAboutGolf]

24 minutes ago, HS2BS said:

These companies have no standings in the US as they pay no taxes here and are registered as foreign businesses. The reply sounds that they are whining!

 

Hal

Yes, but they do "pay".

Many ships are home ported in FL; they pay for the ship supplies/food/alcohol, fuel, disposal, the FL offices and advertising.

Edited April 12, 2020 by NutsAboutGolf

[MarLieb]

The time and effort it took to write this statement should have been put into the writing of the new plan they need to come up with in the next 7 days to comply with the CDC's directive.  I agree with everyone who has posted above.  The cruise industry has zero leverage here.  They need the US.  The US doesn't need them.  If they were US companies paying taxes, it would probably be a different story.  If they do not wish to comply, nothing is stopping them from continuing to operate by embarking and disembarking elsewhere (well, that is, of course, if other countries don't impose similar orders).  I really don't see the purpose of this statement.  I can't imagine it will make a difference to the US authorities.  I also saw no mention in the CDC order which implied cruise ships weren't clean.  If I recall, it mostly referenced what they required the industry to do to improve their medical facilities and capabilities onboard and to have other ships in place to serve in evacuations if need be so they would stop being so reliant government resources to bail them out.  The cruise lines became high profile recently because they became SO reliant on the US, Japan and Australia, for instance, to, quite literally, rescue their passengers.  What other industry requires this level of assistance?  And for an industry that isn't paying US taxes?!  

[MarLieb]

19 minutes ago, hcat said:

Wonder how much cruise lines pay in port fees?

Seems  like a  small amount on our invoices but it must add up to quite alot...

 

Don't know enough about the organization to comment on their positions...assume it is a trade organization that promotes inerests of its members and deal with issues in common????

 

That is correct - it's a trade organization - CLIA, Cruise Lines International Association

[jelayne]

The cruises lines aren’t the only ones not paying taxes.  60 of theFortune  500 apparently didn’t pay taxes in  2018.

https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

[twins_to_alaska]

See also on the thread...No Sail Order extended - 100 days

[Jeremiah1212]

57 minutes ago, HS2BS said:

These companies have no standings in the US as they pay no taxes here and are registered as foreign businesses. The reply sounds that they are whining!

 

Hal

 I can’t argue that the article is poorly written, but to say they pay ‘no’ taxes is just not an accurate statement. How many US registered entities pay no corporate taxes? Or the churches that quality for SBA funds? Same thing.
 

The last paragraph in the article is the only one that presents a decent case and is a topic they need to highlight. Doing so without coming off like they are on the defense will be a challenge. 

[PelicanLvr]

Maybe I'm biased by the fact that my DW and I have seen NO ONE/ gone no where in 4 weeks here in "lock-down" in NY with no end in sight...... the reality is, nobody is going on a cruise ship (by choice or government decree) for the next 100 days....at least.  

 

The cruise industry would be blessed if it is only 100 days from now.....logic says far longer.

 

We love cruise vacations.  But can't even imagine going now.  Can't even imagine traveling now.  Don't know how long the cruise lines can hold on.   So many new-builds and so much debt.  Apex is a good example.  RCI debt to equity ratio is almost 1:1.  

 

Recovery (if ever as we knew it) will be a long time.  The world has changed!

 

PS:  Wonder when anyone will come back to NY.  Not anytime soon.  How unimaginable.

[az_tchr]

37 minutes ago, jelayne said:

The cruises lines aren’t the only ones not paying taxes.  60 of theFortune  500 apparently didn’t pay taxes in  2018.

https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

Jelayne - they paid no income taxes, but they pay payroll taxes, import taxes, sales taxes, unemployment taxes, property taxes and their employees do the same.

[PTC DAWG]

I am amazed we aren't all dead by now.  We were all together a month ago.  Wake up people. 

[WestLakeGirl]

HS2BS.....are you saying that the cruise lines don’t pay sales tax, property tax, fuel tax, vehicle taxes, etc. ?  How can that be?

[az_tchr]

51 minutes ago, WestLakeGirl said:

HS2BS.....are you saying that the cruise lines don’t pay sales tax, property tax, fuel tax, vehicle taxes, etc. ?  How can that be?

Obviously cruise lines pay port fees.  Vehicle taxes?  How many cars or trucks in the US do they own?  Very few.

Fuel taxes - marine fuel used outside the US is basically tax free.  Property taxes - yes on an office but not much.  The crews have very few from the US or Canada.  Mostly foreign.

They certainly have lots of indirect employment here to supply the ships, move crew and passengers to the ships etc. But the bottom line is they are foreign corporations with ships registered and taxed outside the USA.

For US assistance the cruise companies have worn out their welcome dealing with medical issues regarding covid.  Millions of dollars spent.

[jelayne]

1 hour ago, az_tchr said:

Jelayne - they paid no income taxes, but they pay payroll taxes, import taxes, sales taxes, unemployment taxes, property taxes and their employees do the same.

They I’m not a tax expert but I’m pretty sure they payroll taxes, unemployment taxes, sales taxes, etc for their US employees, properties and the supplies they source from the US to supply the ships.

[bEwAbG]

If Celebrity needs help from their home country, they should be talking to the government of Malta and not expecting handouts from U.S. taxpayer money.

[upwarduk]

6 hours ago, az_tchr said:

No addressing of the issues of cruising.  Heck, they have no real viable plan even to get crew members home safely.

There is a message on the Celebrity site that ‘ they are considering  their options.’

I read somewhere that decisions will be made on 15th April ( maybe CDC) so after Easter.

 

 

If Celebrity needs help from their home country, they should be talking to the government of Malta and not expecting handouts from U.S. taxpayer money.

 

Same feeling in UK, where companies like Amazon don’t pay any UK tax.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by upwarduk

[NantahalaCruiser]

7 hours ago, LMaxwell said:

It says cruises put a lot of money into the economy so would news agencies please just leave them alone.  Zero new requirements addressed. It reads like a high school sophomore wrote it for an assignment due after homeroom 

Although it is a press release, it says nothing like "so would news agencies please just leave them alone ." Rather it is saying US agencies such as the CDC should not single out the cruise industry while not issuing similar restrictions on other forms of travel.

[WrittenOnYourHeart]

12 hours ago, MarLieb said:

The time and effort it took to write this statement should have been put into the writing of the new plan they need to come up with in the next 7 days to comply with the CDC's directive. 

 

And what's to say they are not doing just that? It IS possible to have multiple groups working on different things at the same time.

 

(Just to note: I don't know if they are or they aren't. But I do know that most companies/corporations/organizations are quite adept at having multiple groups working on different things at the same time.)

[HS2BS]

The people employed by the cruise lines, like any other business employees do pay “their taxes”, but  corporate taxes on the billions of dollars earned from the cruising community are not paid here. Cruise lines register in the country that they get the best deal on their foreign earnings.

Ever time anyone cruises they pay the fees and taxes of that port - look at your billing from any cruise line. Line one has the cruise fare and then taxes and fees are added to your cruise on subsequent lines before the total. These fees are the local docking, taxes and other fees that get passed along to us, the cruiser.

 

Hal

Edited April 12, 2020 by HS2BS

[hcat]

8 hours ago, bEwAbG said:

If Celebrity needs help from their home country, they should be talking to the government of Malta and not expecting handouts from U.S. taxpayer money.

So will we be flying to Malta for future cruises?

Doubt they could handle big ships, many  air flights per day  and big cruise ship crowds!

 

I think something will be worked out in the form of loans or equity stake.. too important for US ports and economy. How many hotels and restaurants in US ports would close if the ships were gone..we may find out very soon!

[waterbug123]

12 hours ago, MarLieb said:

The cruise industry has zero leverage here.  They need the US.  The US doesn't need them.  If they were US companies paying taxes, it would probably be a different story.  If they do not wish to comply, nothing is stopping them from continuing to operate by embarking and disembarking elsewhere (well, that is, of course, if other countries don't impose similar orders).

 

Actually, it's about a lot more than just whether or not other countries let them embark/disembark.  If cruises cannot operate out of the US, that means a HUGE % of cruise pax must fly internationally to a port to embark.  That's going to eliminate a lot of cruisers and/or cause a lot of them to cruise a lot less often.

 

12 hours ago, jelayne said:

The cruises lines aren’t the only ones not paying taxes.  60 of theFortune  500 apparently didn’t pay taxes in  2018.

https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

 

So those companies don't pay any employment taxes, for example?

 

11 hours ago, az_tchr said:

Jelayne - they paid no income taxes, but they pay payroll taxes, import taxes, sales taxes, unemployment taxes, property taxes and their employees do the same.

 

Exactly.  It's the same when a locality lures a large industry to build a plant in their city or county and gives them a bunch of tax breaks to do so.  You'll have a lot of people complaining that they shouldn't give them all those tax breaks, but that ignores the huge economic impact it has on an area when, for example, 5000 jobs are created.

Edited April 12, 2020 by waterbug123