Attention Over 70 Year Old Cruisers

[gailellen12]

I imagine by the time most cruises are starting to go out again.  this will be clarified one way or the other.

[Nymich]

This is a cya.  They get the note or not and you are responsible for all costs in the event anyone gets ill.  More of a policy to release the line from any responsibility imo.

[HAL4NOW]

10 hours ago, dave_k58 said:

No Physician in his right mind is going to guarantee in writing that anyone is fit to sail, or fit for any activity - no matter what their age. It may even be against HIPPA laws.

 

Pilots of aircraft in the United States need to have a medical certificate (with some exceptions) and it needs to be renewed regularly. That doesn't guarantee fitness, it just gives a baseline for fitness at a given time. After age 40 the frequency of renewal is shortened.

A quote from the AOPA (Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association) website:

• The airman medical standards are minimum standards. There is no practical way for all possible medical conditions to be considered in a regulatory standard. For that reason, the FAA develops certification policies that include baselines for different medical conditions that are weighed against the risk of incapacitation associated with that condition. That way, every applicant for a medical certificate who has a medical condition that requires review will receive consideration that is measured against the medical policy and on the merits of the individual's medical case history.

 

Of course the passengers in an aircraft are not held to the same standard as the pilots or operators. 

 

[Mary229]

The hurdle will be getting a doctor to sign off for you.  Prior letters may have been easy to get but I think there will be few physicians wanting to sign off in these times.  All of the physicians in my life, professional, friends, neighbors are far more concerned about this virus than I am but I am not a fool😁 - I take their advice

[HokiePoq]

11 hours ago, dave_k58 said:

No Physician in his right mind is going to guarantee in writing that anyone is fit to sail, or fit for any activity - no matter what their age. It may even be against HIPPA laws.

 

Hurtigruten required such a statement to go on our Antarctic expeditionary cruise that was cancelled in March.   In addition everyone was to be examined by the ship's doctor prior to embarkation.  All that is before COVID-19.

[SilvertoGold]

17 minutes ago, HokiePoq said:

Hurtigruten required such a statement to go on our Antarctic expeditionary cruise that was cancelled in March.   In addition everyone was to be examined by the ship's doctor prior to embarkation.  All that is before COVID-19.

 

According to Hurtigruten's website, under Frequently Asked Questions, Expeditions cruises require a medical form 8 weeks prior to departure.  Antarctic, South Georgia, NE Coast of Greenland, NW Passage, Labrador and NFLD.

These cruises are intended for people in good health. 

Due to the remoteness, no sophisticated medical facilities are available in these sailing areas, presenting an unreasonable risk to health for some.

 

The form reads like the forms we have filled out for medical travel insurance.

Edited April 22, 2020 by SilvertoGold

[slidergirl]

Plenty of VOLUNTARY activities already require "proof of fitness".  It's not a HIPPA violation.  The last time I had to get a PoF done, my ortho just scribbled out on his script pad that I was heathy to do the activity.   Also, remember that there are times that your health care provider has had to send a note to your employer indicating the you were now OK to return to work.  Nothing different.

 

Cruise lines are public entities and can set rules for boarding - no law suit is going to get through the door.

[Roz]

4 hours ago, bobcan said:

I have no problem with the doctor's okay provided everyone is required to get it not just 70 and over. I am turning 70 this year and on past cruises have joticed that many people younger than myself are in far worse health than myself and even worse than some in their 80's and 90's. Picking 70 is a form of age discrimination and I think could result in the cruise lines being subject to legal action for requiring this.

 

I think they picked 70 because all the stats indicate that those 70 and over are more likely to die from COVID-19 than younger folks.  

 

I was on a cruise where there were so many people in their 30s and 40s on scooters it was ridiculous.  They had bad knees, bad backs, bad feet, etc., but their underlying condition seemed to be obesity.  

[VMax1700]

4 minutes ago, Roz said:

the stats indicate that those 70 and over are more likely to die from COVID-19 than younger folks.  

In Ireland, we have so far been relatively unscathed, but a total of 769 people have died from Covid19.  Of these 667 deaths relate to people aged 70 and above.  That is 87% of fatalities are aged 70+.

[Crazy For Cats]

After reading this thread I’m left wondering what would you do if your doctor just doesn’t like cruising so would refuse to sign a form.  Would an underground market pop up for fake forms, much like fake ID’s for underage drinking?

[Tampa Girl]

2 hours ago, Nymich said:

This is a cya.  They get the note or not and you are responsible for all costs in the event anyone gets ill.  More of a policy to release the line from any responsibility imo.

 

As passengers, we are always responsible for payment the medical care given onboard.  That is why everyone urges people to get medical insurance.  In the absence of another pandemic, or continuation of the present one, the requirement that seniors provide of "fit to travel" seems unnecessary.  If we become ill and cannot finish the cruise, we are the ones who have to pay for medical care, not HAL.  We are the ones who have to pay for any cost of medical evacuation.  So the cruise line is not being relieved of any liability for passenger care.  They are not liable now.  Again, this is absent a pandemic.

[Nymich]

7 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

the requirement that seniors provide of "fit to travel" seems unnecessary.  

Very necessary for cya purposes

Edited April 22, 2020 by Nymich

[panoramaofthepast]

8 hours ago, YXU AC*SE said:

Princess last night pushed an email to me overnight (source: https://em.princess.com/pub/sf/ResponseForm?_ri_=X0Gzc2X%3DYQpglLjHJlTQGjzg698sClzaov567lm2PTasvLuMHG1LJAX774BC2qoWvhDldzb7fcTmpL2VXMtX%3DYQpglLjHJlTQGjzg698sClzaov567lm2PTasyzaLe11m6fuAE7RgjzgSwOKA4mNEoYda1EB5&_ei_=En_toCXco5meUc1jdQbP7p0r4BQi8OA2hg&_di_=21ho1ntmgebvkulk866mjfrfk2d17l58glrnssoqag9a1a5f9nvg) 

 

with the attached mention in it.

(source: https://www.princess.com/downloads/pdf/plan/Health-Advisory-and-Travel-Safety-Procedures.pdf?cid=dm_email_info_internal_newsletter_others_pf0ms080_200421_weekly_KPI2FPNQY6EJGP2LSJ6ICSI7ME&eccn=KPI2FPNQY6EJGP2LSJ6ICSI7ME&rrid=8602129929&mi_u=8602129929)

 

B. Travel Restrictions: Guests and crew members meeting certain criteria
will be unable to sail. Guests who are unable to sail because of a failure to
meet the following criteria will be issued a full cruise credit or refund: 

I. If you have been in contact with a suspected or confirmed case of
COVID-19, or a person under monitoring for COVID-19.
II. If you are suffering from a fever or flu-like symptoms prior to
embarkation.
III. If you have an underlying severe chronic medical condition.

 

The above requirements apply to all guests, crew members, service staff
and visitors. 

 

I wonder what constitutes severe and how it may be determined at embarkation?     Scott.  

So what do they consider a "severe chronic" medical condition? It would be helpful to have that defined. It would also help to know if it applies when  those conditions are controlled by medication. 

As long as ALL passengers who have a "severe chronic" medical condition are required to submit a doctors' letter, I can accept this. To limit it to the over 70s comes close to discrimination. I understand that a larger % of COVID patients are over 70, but we are now seeing more and more at younger ages. If the goal is to target groups where medical problems might exist, then be more inclusive to make sure everyone is safe to travel. 

Perhaps the cruise lines might consider expanding their medical departments as well. 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by panoramaofthepast

[wander]

Back when we were in our 30s and 40s (1970-1980s) we had older relatives and friends who loved to go on Freighters.  Physician clearance forms were routine for Freighters.  Getting a physician to complete the forms was easy for most of them.  No physician was expected to make any sweeping statements about great medical condition, but rather only to point out any condition that might seriously erupt while on the 6 month sailing.  They had no problem getting such paperwork from their physicians for many years.  
They did have rather run of the mill heart issues, respiratory issues, but apparently not a a level that precluded such trips.  The last I knew such paperwork was still required for Freighter trips although they are somewhat phased out for passengers these days from what I understand.

 

It will be interesting what will actually be expected in present day standards.  Words from the cruise lines is lacking - but probably they are waiting to see what CDC or whoever expects from them.

 

 

 

 

 

[RocketMan275]

8 hours ago, YXU AC*SE said:

Princess last night pushed an email to me overnight (source: https://em.princess.com/pub/sf/ResponseForm?_ri_=X0Gzc2X%3DYQpglLjHJlTQGjzg698sClzaov567lm2PTasvLuMHG1LJAX774BC2qoWvhDldzb7fcTmpL2VXMtX%3DYQpglLjHJlTQGjzg698sClzaov567lm2PTasyzaLe11m6fuAE7RgjzgSwOKA4mNEoYda1EB5&_ei_=En_toCXco5meUc1jdQbP7p0r4BQi8OA2hg&_di_=21ho1ntmgebvkulk866mjfrfk2d17l58glrnssoqag9a1a5f9nvg) 

 

with the attached mention in it.

(source: https://www.princess.com/downloads/pdf/plan/Health-Advisory-and-Travel-Safety-Procedures.pdf?cid=dm_email_info_internal_newsletter_others_pf0ms080_200421_weekly_KPI2FPNQY6EJGP2LSJ6ICSI7ME&eccn=KPI2FPNQY6EJGP2LSJ6ICSI7ME&rrid=8602129929&mi_u=8602129929)

 

B. Travel Restrictions: Guests and crew members meeting certain criteria
will be unable to sail. Guests who are unable to sail because of a failure to
meet the following criteria will be issued a full cruise credit or refund: 

I. If you have been in contact with a suspected or confirmed case of
COVID-19, or a person under monitoring for COVID-19.
II. If you are suffering from a fever or flu-like symptoms prior to
embarkation.
III. If you have an underlying severe chronic medical condition.

 

The above requirements apply to all guests, crew members, service staff
and visitors. 

 

I wonder what constitutes severe and how it may be determined at embarkation?     Scott.  

You will note there is no mention of over age 70.

[RocketMan275]

5 hours ago, bobcan said:

I have no problem with the doctor's okay provided everyone is required to get it not just 70 and over. I am turning 70 this year and on past cruises have joticed that many people younger than myself are in far worse health than myself and even worse than some in their 80's and 90's. Picking 70 is a form of age discrimination and I think could result in the cruise lines being subject to legal action for requiring this.

It is NOT age discrimination as long as there is a rational reason for doing something.

For example, multiple states have more stringent criteria for granting driver's licenses for those over a certain age.  Do you think this is also age discrimination?

[DaveSJ711]

33 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

It is NOT age discrimination as long as there is a rational reason for doing something.

For example, multiple states have more stringent criteria for granting driver's licenses for those over a certain age.  Do you think this is also age discrimination?

 

I'll bet the "age discrimination" folks aren't turning down their senior discounts.

[Tampa Girl]

2 hours ago, Nymich said:

Very necessary for cya purposes

 

 

But you have not given any reason why the cruise line should need such a cya.  Please explain what the line would want to protect itself from?  It can't be the medical costs since the passenger pays those.  Again, I am assuming a non-pandemic situation.  

[Nymich]

2 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

 

But you have not given any reason why the cruise line should need such a cya.  Please explain what the line would want to protect itself from?  It can't be the medical costs since the passenger pays those.  Again, I am assuming a non-pandemic situation.  

We are all good here.  I think it's a good cya move and you don't.  It's ok to disagree.

[cbr663]

6 hours ago, thyme2go said:

.....

I see this as simply a moving of responsibility.........noro, covid, etc...... the bigger problem for the cruise industry is that you are contained to a relatively small area and cannot 'escape' at any point---yet can depart and return after port calls but that is a potential transmission source.   Transmission of covid.......or any communicable disease is an issue the industry needs to address in many more ways than asking travelers to "prove" they can travel on the day the trip starts.

 

I so agree with you.  This is little more than trying to reduce the number of vulnerable passengers should an outbreak occur on a ship.  Even screening passengers at embarkation with things like temperature taking can help to highlight the virus early, but it does little to prevent the virus from getting on the ship.  Any crew member or passenger could come in contact with the virus enroute to the ship and it could take days before it raises its ugly head.

 

The one thing that the cruise line has not addressed is what it will do should an outbreak occur and the ship is once again unable to dock anywhere.  This is the question that I need answered.

[grsnovi]

Considering that it now appears as if quite a few folks have had COVID pneumonia for quite a while prior to even knowing they had a problem you have to wonder just what a note you might get from you doctor weeks prior would actually be worth. As far as age discrimination goes, I suspect it isn't a factor in the countries where the lines are registered. It will be interesting to see how all of the law suits that are now being levied against various lines play out.

[Sunshine3601]

14 hours ago, YXU AC*SE said:

Princess last night pushed an email to me overnight (source: https://em.princess.com/pub/sf/ResponseForm?_ri_=X0Gzc2X%3DYQpglLjHJlTQGjzg698sClzaov567lm2PTasvLuMHG1LJAX774BC2qoWvhDldzb7fcTmpL2VXMtX%3DYQpglLjHJlTQGjzg698sClzaov567lm2PTasyzaLe11m6fuAE7RgjzgSwOKA4mNEoYda1EB5&_ei_=En_toCXco5meUc1jdQbP7p0r4BQi8OA2hg&_di_=21ho1ntmgebvkulk866mjfrfk2d17l58glrnssoqag9a1a5f9nvg) 

 

with the attached mention in it.

(source: https://www.princess.com/downloads/pdf/plan/Health-Advisory-and-Travel-Safety-Procedures.pdf?cid=dm_email_info_internal_newsletter_others_pf0ms080_200421_weekly_KPI2FPNQY6EJGP2LSJ6ICSI7ME&eccn=KPI2FPNQY6EJGP2LSJ6ICSI7ME&rrid=8602129929&mi_u=8602129929)

 

B. Travel Restrictions: Guests and crew members meeting certain criteria
will be unable to sail. Guests who are unable to sail because of a failure to
meet the following criteria will be issued a full cruise credit or refund: 

I. If you have been in contact with a suspected or confirmed case of
COVID-19, or a person under monitoring for COVID-19.
II. If you are suffering from a fever or flu-like symptoms prior to
embarkation.
III. If you have an underlying severe chronic medical condition.

 

The above requirements apply to all guests, crew members, service staff
and visitors. 

 

I wonder what constitutes severe and how it may be determined at embarkation?     Scott.  

I do not see the website or the 7 page document saying anything about cruisers 70 or older needing a dr note?  Did I miss it?

[YXU AC*SE]

9 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I do not see the website or the 7 page document saying anything about cruisers 70 or older needing a dr note?  Did I miss it?

 

There is no age or PCP certificate requirement mentioned in the Princess document at all - just 'underlying severe chronic medical condition' - I am not the OP.     Scott. 

[Roger88]

1 minute ago, YXU AC*SE said:

 

There is no age or PCP certificate requirement mentioned in the Princess document at all - just 'underlying severe chronic medical condition' - I am not the OP.     Scott. 

All these documents are no more than requirements by the companies itself. There is no law that obliges you to have this kind of paper with you when boarding the ship. I mean, its clearly a violation of your rights. Unless you were warned in advance that they will not let you in without it. In all other cases, if no one told you about it and have already purchased a cruise and try boarding the ship - you shouldnt be worrying about this paper. Correct me if I am wrong

[YXU AC*SE]

12 minutes ago, Roger88 said:

You shouldn't be worrying about this paper.

 

Rather than me re-state, perhaps you may re-read what Princess themselves are proposing, which is neither age- nor certificated-based.

 

In the end, I expect the cruise line could not board you, and refund and/or credit your money at the pier, which is what they indicate will happen. This seems rather unambiguous to me: "Guests who are unable to sail because of a failure to meet the following criteria will be issued a full cruise credit or refund[.]"      Scott.  

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by YXU AC*SE