Masks probably required

[momofmab]

I agree with Ocean Boy's assessment on the effectiveness of mask-wearing.  Certainly if a wearer has active symptoms of any kind, the mask is better than nothing but generally I think it's a false sense of security (particularly if your idea of a mask is a bandana).  The wearing of gloves is similar - unless you plan to change them every time you touch something (months from now, we'll see PILES of discarded gloves in our landfills).

 

I wear a mask when I grocery shop (several of our chains are requiring them) but in my head I'm doubting that they have much effect, and I will wear one when I have to fly in July - because the airline that I'm booked on is also requiring it (I feel like I'm hyperventilating when I wear it, so I'm hoping I don't pass-out during my 2 hour flight!)

 

I would choose not to cruise, if mask-wearing is mandated (or any vacation destination - like Disney - if I have to wear a mask).  I know I could not enjoy a vacation where I am breathing in my own hot breath for extended periods of time, nor would I want to pay thousands of dollars for it.  For a while, any future vacation plans will center on places I can drive to and vacation home rentals, where I can be mask-free and crowd-free.

[bouhunter]

48 minutes ago, momofmab said:

 

 

I would choose not to cruise, if mask-wearing is mandated (or any vacation destination - like Disney - if I have to wear a mask).  I know I could not enjoy a vacation where I am breathing in my own hot breath for extended periods of time, nor would I want to pay thousands of dollars for it.  For a while, any future vacation plans will center on places I can drive to and vacation home rentals, where I can be mask-free and crowd-free.

We feel exactly the same way.  Have booked alternative lodging in Florida for next winter if masks are going to be required for our winter cruises.  Not to mention whatever other "social distancing" measures will be put in place to further reduce the enjoyment of a cruise.  Hopefully by the time final payments for us start coming due in October we'll know more about what a cruise experience is going to be.  I'm surprised how many people here seem ready to put up with almost anything just to get on a ship, but to each their own.

Edited May 12, 2020 by bouhunter

[mugtech]

2 minutes ago, bouhunter said:

I'm surprised how many people here seem ready to put up with anything just to get on a ship, but to each their own.

Some spent 20 years in the navy.

[bouhunter]

3 minutes ago, mugtech said:

Some spent 20 years in the navy.

What is the point?

Edited May 12, 2020 by bouhunter

[Evilgrin72]

10 hours ago, A&L_Ont said:

Let me know if he wears a mask.  Not worried about the helmet. 

 

Odds increase slightly in NFLD, The Yukon and Northern Ontario. 😉

 

You forgot to add Genuine Saskatchewan Seal Skin Bindings. 

 

SUPER DAVE!   May he R.I.P....

[Ocean Boy]

29 minutes ago, bouhunter said:

We feel exactly the same way.  Have booked alternative lodging in Florida for next winter if masks are going to be required for our winter cruises.  Not to mention whatever other "social distancing" measures will be put in place to further reduce the enjoyment of a cruise.  Hopefully by the time final payments for us start coming due in October we'll know more about what a cruise experience is going to be.  I'm surprised how many people here seem ready to put up with almost anything just to get on a ship, but to each their own.

I also have final payments coming up in October. I just hope cruising starts up soon enough so we have an idea of what is happening before those payments are due.  Wearing masks is an absolute deal breaker.  At least I feel more comfortable knowing I can cancel up to 48 hrs. before the cruise for an FCC though it doesn't help with making flight arrangements.

[Milwaukee Eight]

1 hour ago, momofmab said:

Certainly if a wearer has active symptoms of any kind, the mask is better than nothing but generally I think it's a false sense of security

Symptoms?  Many are Asymptomatic and have NO symptoms. Contact tracing performed here on a hospitalized COVID19 patient, found 10 people who tested positive with no symptoms of the disease. 

[A&L_Ont]

9 minutes ago, Evilgrin72 said:

 

SUPER DAVE!   May he R.I.P....

 

Glad someone caught the reference.

 

I thought about posting a clip with him on his motorcycle for @Milwaukee Eight, as they referenced the bindings, but passed on it.

[mugtech]

24 minutes ago, bouhunter said:

What is the point?

Joining the navy is voluntary.

[bouhunter]

9 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

I also have final payments coming up in October. I just hope cruising starts up soon enough so we have an idea on what is happening before those payments are due.  Wearing masks is an absolute deal breaker.  At least I feel more comfortable knowing I can cancel up to 48 hrs. before the cruise for an FCC though it doesn't help with making flight arrangements.

Yeah airfare would further complicate planning...…..    Fortunately we plan to drive to Florida and be there 2-3 months regardless of whether or not we go on the 3 cruises.  I hope I'm wrong, but it seems questionable that they'll even be sailing in October when final payments start coming due 😞

 

[momofmab]

2 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Symptoms?  Many are Asymptomatic and have NO symptoms. Contact tracing performed here on a hospitalized COVID19 patient, found 10 people who tested positive with no symptoms of the disease. 

Understood.  However with the shortage of N95 masks, people are wearing homemade masks, many without filters, that gap, are thin, and don’t fit properly.  They are regularly pulling it down to expose their noses (presumably to grab a breath of fresh air).   Unless everyone is wearing N95’s and wearing them properly,  I think there’s a false sense of security.

 

like I said, I wear my homemade Etsy mask with a wool filter when I go grocery shopping (which is the only place I go).  Symptomatic or asymptomatic, if others feel better seeing me wear it when I am engaged in necessary activities that involve other people, I’m willing to comply.

[alfaeric]

13 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

Every day we all come in contact with people who have asymptomatic infections and could be exposed to whatever microbes they are harboring at the moment. Do we wear masks forever to protect others from ourselves? Do we wear them to protect ourselves from them? Is it only Corona that we concern ourselves with? What about Tuberculosis? Anyone coughing Mycobacterium into the air of the elevator you happen to be on? That scares me more than Corona. Maybe a little streptococcus for good measure though, granted, much easier to treat than TB. But certainly a nuisance to get while on vacation.  How far do we go and when, if ever, does it end or do we just protect ourselves from each other forever by covering our faces? Do people who are at higher risk for a bad outcome from Corona have any sense of duty to stay away from other people and cruise ships for awhile? I don't know the answer to the questions. 

 

This is what I think wearing a mask mostly does besides forcing me to rebreathe some of the air I exhale and dropping the pO2 level in my blood. It gives people the feeling that they have some control over Corona. That feeling of control reduces panic.  Imagine the reaction to politicians and the media proclaiming there is nothing you can do. So after scaring the crap out of people they come up with something you can do besides not getting too close to other people.  Maybe it helps a bit. It might help a bit for all kinds of illnesses.  It might just give you more reason to have your hands near your face because you are fiddling with the thing. The bottom line is the microbial world can be a dangerous and scary place where common microbes entering the wrong body can wreak havoc. But is hard to have an adequate discussion about this on a cruise message board. But I don't think not being pro-masks has anything to do with not giving a hoot about fellow cruisers.

 

Well, when was the last time an outbreak of any of the other microbes you are worried about filled up hospitals and killed so many people?  People are worried about COVID19 because of the increased risk of death relative to everything else.  That's kind of the point.  It's also showing to be far more virulent than other viruses- it passes quickly to a lot of people.  Not sure why people constantly downplay the difference between COVID19 and all the other viruses out there- makes no sense.  Yes, there's a risk, but it's not nearly the same risk.  Not even close to the same risk- even if the risk of dying is really small overall- it's much worse than all other active viruses and diseases out there.  The risk of dying of pneumonia is also hugely up- like 4-5x the normal rate- and the only change in the world is COVID.  

 

If it makes you feel better to down play it, go for it.  But that's not going to help the cruise business who have had passengers and crew die from this.  When was the last time there were noro deaths?

 

As for the masks, I do agree about the false sense of security.  Still, even if they were 50% effective, that reduces your nominal exposure by 50%- which makes social distancing even more effective.  I  see no problem wearing one, if it takes a month or so off the time that we have to deal with this virus.   That's one of the key things- the more aggressive we deal with this, the faster we will get through it.  At some point, the odds of spreading the disease will allow the virus to just run out on it's own.  But we have to get those odds much farther down.  So masks can be a very effective tool to allow some opening of the economy and keep the spread down.

[Ocean Boy]

23 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

 

Well, when was the last time an outbreak of any of the other microbes you are worried about filled up hospitals and killed so many people?  People are worried about COVID19 because of the increased risk of death relative to everything else.  That's kind of the point.  It's also showing to be far more virulent than other viruses- it passes quickly to a lot of people.  Not sure why people constantly downplay the difference between COVID19 and all the other viruses out there- makes no sense.  Yes, there's a risk, but it's not nearly the same risk.  Not even close to the same risk- even if the risk of dying is really small overall- it's much worse than all other active viruses and diseases out there.  The risk of dying of pneumonia is also hugely up- like 4-5x the normal rate- and the only change in the world is COVID.  

 

If it makes you feel better to down play it, go for it.  But that's not going to help the cruise business who have had passengers and crew die from this.  When was the last time there were noro deaths?

 

As for the masks, I do agree about the false sense of security.  Still, even if they were 50% effective, that reduces your nominal exposure by 50%- which makes social distancing even more effective.  I  see no problem wearing one, if it takes a month or so off the time that we have to deal with this virus.   That's one of the key things- the more aggressive we deal with this, the faster we will get through it.  At some point, the odds of spreading the disease will allow the virus to just run out on it's own.  But we have to get those odds much farther down.  So masks can be a very effective tool to allow some opening of the economy and keep the spread down.

No intention of arguing or debating your thoughts.

[hazence]

The problem is people are being forced to do something they truly think has little value...just because other people...truly think it does.  
 

We have much more information on second hand smoke...yet the debate between smokers and non-smokers who believe their second hand smoke harms others...goes on.

 

This discussion has no chance of convincing anyone...in either direction. 
 

For me I’ll wear a mask to shop for essentials where it’s required. I’ll wear a mask when with concerned friends who ask me to. 
 

Otherwise, no. 
 

I certainly won’t spend money to vacation on a cruise ship or at a resort that has that requirement. 
 

Unless required by the government, this may be a tough call for a Cruise industry trying to survive. 

[alfaeric]

16 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

No intention of arguing or debating your thoughts.

Thing is, whether we like it or not, the cruise industry will be held to a MUCH higher standard than everyone else.  Open offices and tight quarters at work are far more risky in terms of spread, but there's far more news about cruises being super dangerous.  

 

So to get back going again, they will either have to wait a very long time or implement some very drastic measures, or even both.  Otherwise the risk to them as an industry would not be sustainable.  Just look at the noro coverage- when we all know the risk of other places are far more real and significant.

 

This isn't really about the doubters, it's about the ones who really believe it, and weighing the risks of getting on a cruise ship.  If risks are not addressed, or just blown off by other passengers, not enough people will be cruising anytime soon.

 

You can think of it as hysteria all you want- but the deaths are real, especially compared to all other viruses and diseases going around.  Full hospitals are real, in a manner that I don't ever recall in any other outbreak.  I have no idea how any of that can be considered fake.  They are just numbers.

[alfaeric]

Just now, hazence said:

The problem is people are being forced to do something they truly think has little value...just because other people...truly think it does.  
 

We have much more information on second hand smoke...yet the debate between smokers and non-smokers who believe their second hand smoke harms others...goes on.

 

This discussion has no chance of convincing anyone...in either direction. 
 

For me I’ll wear a mask to shop for essentials where it’s required. I’ll wear a mask when with concerned friends who ask me to. 
 

Otherwise, no. 
 

I certainly won’t spend money to vacation on a cruise ship or at a resort that has that requirement. 
 

Unless required by the government, this may be a tough call for a Cruise industry trying to survive. 

Even if you don't think masks help, whats the harm of using them in the context of the other personal distancing measures we do?   Masks do filter stuff, and if you need 1000 virus particles to get sick and the mask reduces that by 50%, how is that not helpful?  Why is perfection required to be effective?  Wearing a mask is better than doing nothing, and it's not hard (unless you don't have access to one).

 

People are not being asked to storm a beach under gunfire.  They are being asked to stay apart and add a mask.  Is that really that hard?

[Ocean Boy]

...because masks get contaminated quickly. You ever heard of a surgeon wearing the same mask for two different operations? People fiddle with those contaminated masks. Rebreathing your exhaled air all day is not healthy.....

 

Yes, cruise lines can make the requirement. I simply said I won't be there if they do.

 

Geeze, I'm getting drawn into exactly what I said I wouldn't. I'm done. 

[Iamcruzin]

18 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

  Open offices and tight quarters at work are far more risky in terms of spread, but there's far more news about cruises being super dangerous.  

The only thing that makes a cruise more of a risk than a crowded office is that you can be stuck on the ship for weeks without the proper medical care because the closest country won't let you dock. If I'm in the office and get sick I can go home or to the hospital.

[hazence]

36 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

Even if you don't think masks help, whats the harm of using them in the context of the other personal distancing measures we do?   Masks do filter stuff, and if you need 1000 virus particles to get sick and the mask reduces that by 50%, how is that not helpful?  Why is perfection required to be effective?  Wearing a mask is better than doing nothing, and it's not hard (unless you don't have access to one).

 

People are not being asked to storm a beach under gunfire.  They are being asked to stay apart and add a mask.  Is that really that hard?

 

I don’t know Ocean Boy. But I gave birth to my personal physician. I know she loves her Dad and me...and she is crazy attentive and sometimes aggressive in getting us to do what we must...to protect ourselves.
 

She was trained at one of the finest hospitals in this country....so there’s that component too.

 

She agrees with Ocean Boy.

 

Now as far as what Dr Fauci says...initially he said just the opposite about masks. Now supposedly he just lied back then...a nice lie....in order to preserve masks for medical workers. So now he says to wear them. Well, maybe now it’s a  nice lie to make us feel we have some control. Which version of advice is a lie...we just really don’t know. 
 

My daughter....when it comes to our health...hasn’t lied to me yet. (Though in high school there were two incidents regarding curfew ) lol

 

 

 

[alfaeric]

1 hour ago, Ocean Boy said:

...because masks get contaminated quickly. You ever heard of a surgeon wearing the same mask for two different operations? People fiddle with those contaminated masks. Rebreathing your exhaled air all day is not healthy.....

 

Yes, cruise lines can make the requirement. I simply said I won't be there if they do.

 

Geeze, I'm getting drawn into exactly what I said I wouldn't. I'm done. 

When I go back to work, I'll get a new mask every single day.  And it will be a requirement.

Why is rebreathing your own air not healthy???  I don't understand that.  It's already coming from you- can't get any worse than it is.  You are not going to get a new virus from yourself.  People sleep through the night wearing a mask to help them keep breathing- I don't hear about massive amounts of deaths from that.  It may smell bad because of bad breath, but it's not any more harmful.

 

If you already sick, you should not be out in public anyway.

 

And if you have a personal cloth one, you can clean it, too.  

 

All things considered, it's still a net benefit to avoid spreading a virus.  

 

I understand why you would not cruise, but I don't understand being asked to do something so minor to wear a mask when you are in public such a bad thing. Right now, I wear one maybe 30 min a week.  When I eventually go back to work- it will be 9 hours/day.  But balancing the pros and cons, adding more value to social distancing just helps eliminate the spread, and eventually that will eliminate the virus.

Edited May 12, 2020 by alfaeric

[alfaeric]

26 minutes ago, hazence said:

 

I don’t know Ocean Boy. But I gave birth to my personal physician. I know she loves her Dad and me...and she is crazy attentive and sometimes aggressive in getting us to do what we must...to protect ourselves.
 

She was trained at one of the finest hospitals in this country....so there’s that component too.

 

She agrees with Ocean Boy.

 

Now as far as what Dr Fauci says...initially he said just the opposite about masks. Now supposedly he just lied back then...a nice lie....in order to preserve masks for medical workers. So now he says to wear them. Well, maybe now it’s a  nice lie to make us feel we have some control. Which version of advice is a lie...we just really don’t know. 
 

My daughter....when it comes to our health...hasn’t lied to me yet. (Though in high school there were two incidents regarding curfew ) lol

 

 

 

Ok then have her explain why a mask is a bad thing.  Relative to the filtering that it does.

 

Ignoring the false sense of security- since they are supposed to be in addition to keeping apart.  And noting that for the vast majority of people, you would only wear them every once in a while when you go out shopping.

 

The scientist in me has a tough time when a filter is counter productive tool to reducing the spread of a virus.  It's certainly better than doing nothing.

[D C]

59 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:

The only thing that makes a cruise more of a risk than a crowded office is that you can be stuck on the ship for weeks without the proper medical care because the closest country won't let you dock. If I'm in the office and get sick I can go home or to the hospital.

Frankly, our only concern about cruising is getting stuck on the ship.  I hope that is a thing of the past once cruising resumes.  Initially, it was to keep the infected people out of whatever country/port they were trying to access.  Now, the virus is everywhere anyhow, so preventing debarkation and giving those people care is idiotic.

 

I fail to see how a cruise ship could possibly be worse than an office.  Personal contact and lingering around other people is minimal.  Tons of outdoor spaces where transmission possibility is almost zero.  Sanitizer and hand washing are EVERYWHERE.  I've honestly never felt so sanitary as on a ship.  Heck, just the lack of having to touch a bathroom door handle is a plus over the office. 

 

Plus, we dine outside whenever possible, and even skip the MDR frequently to dine al fresco in the evening at the Sunset Bar (on X, not RCL).   

Edited May 12, 2020 by D C

[bouhunter]

37 minutes ago, hazence said:

 

I don’t know Ocean Boy. But I gave birth to my personal physician. I know she loves her Dad and me...and she is crazy attentive and sometimes aggressive in getting us to do what we must...to protect ourselves.
 

She was trained at one of the finest hospitals in this country....so there’s that component too.

 

She agrees with Ocean Boy.

 

Now as far as what Dr Fauci says...initially he said just the opposite about masks. Now supposedly he just lied back then...a nice lie....in order to preserve masks for medical workers. So now he says to wear them. Well, maybe now it’s a  nice lie to make us feel we have some control. Which version of advice is a lie...we just really don’t know. 
 

My daughter....when it comes to our health...hasn’t lied to me yet. (Though in high school there were two incidents regarding curfew ) lol

 

 

 

Good points.  Fauci is also on tape in late January saying there was nothing to worry about and Americans didn't have to change anything they were doing...….

[momofmab]

Going to work for most people (sometimes to places where there are other people), is necessary.  Going on a cruise or to Disney/Universal/Legoland, etc., not necessary.

 

I'm in agreement that social distancing works much more efficiently than the mask-wearing.  To give an example - I went to my grocery store early this morning, an hour after it opened, wearing my non medical-grade mask.  Hardly anyone in there.  I never came within 8 feet of another person - until I got to the checkout, where the cashier was standing very close to another employee (both with masks down below their chins - noses and mouths exposed, talking & breathing).  Our stores have plexiglass installed in front of where the cash registers are, but not in front of the card-readers.  I stood in front the card reader, in my mask, swiping and keying in my info (using my own hand sanitizer after I was done touching it) while the cashier went back and forth between scanning my items and standing in my line of breathing to bag them (again, no plexiglass in this area).  When I was finished, the cashier told me in a stern tone that I was required to stand behind the plexiglass.  I complied without comment but I'm thinking about how she was just in close contact with another employee, masks down, and stepped in front of me several times (with her mask back on at that point) and she's worried that I'm not behind the plexiglass??

 

My point is that most people who are not in the medical field are not truly knowledgeable about proper hygiene procedures and do not have the means to scrub themselves down, nor do they have the proper medical-grade sterile equipment to wear in order to adequately protect others from this virus.  Prior to this virus I was a volunteer in the NICU at one of our local hospitals.  Immediately upon entering the unit, I had to scrub down, up to my elbows, for 3 minutes, using a disposable scrubber and the same soap that they use in surgery.  Afterward I could not touch anything until I had a baby in my arms (in some cases I also had to wear a mask & gown).  So I think anything less than at least that level of hygiene, provides a false sense of security.  I wear my mask when required but "I" don't feel any more secure about whether I'll get this virus when I see others wearing masks.

Edited May 12, 2020 by momofmab

[CruisingNole]

29 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

 

I understand why you would not cruise, but I don't understand being asked to do something so minor to wear a mask when you are in public such a bad thing.

 

It's called being selfish and entitled. Not willing to cause oneself a little inconvenience for the sake of protecting other human life.

 

It's a trend that's quite common nowadays.