Vaccination Certification?

[navybankerteacher]

6 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I think you might be suffering echo chamber bias. Maybe in your community anti vaxers are a majority but in most of the world they are a tiny minority despite how loud they shout 😂. In Australia they only make up 6% of the population while one study in America suggests only 8%. It is too small a market for cruise lines to care about. On top of that the fear of being on a ship that can't dock is very real for regular cruisers and since insurance has no coverage for COVID19 related expenses having a vaccine that can mitigate those issues is going to only bring more people confidence to cruise than what they will lose out from the anti vaxer brigade. 

 Good point — anti-vaxxers who want only to hear what they want are careful to not listen to to anything disturbing.  Perhaps they might find being denied cruise boarding quite disturbing.

[SelectSys]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Ooh, and what about insurance companies? Maybe THEY'LL require vaccinations.

 

Are you referring to travel insurance or someone's personal insurance? 

 

It will be interesting in the US as there is quite a bit of settled law that the government can in fact mandate vaccination, although they have been loathe to do so for quite some time.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/government-regulation

 

The real question is whether or not the government will permit an insurance company to refuse coverage to someone who doesn't want to get a vaccination?  We all know that any mandate by health insurance companies for a COVID vaccination as a condition of coverage in the US would result in an immediate law suit. 

 

I could see higher rates being charged for people opting out of vaccination but even this is might not happen based on politics.  For example, in CA and NY insurance companies can't charge smokers more for coverage than non-smokers even though the health risks are known.

https://www.healthmarkets.com/content/smoking-and-health-insurance

[clo]

1 minute ago, SelectSys said:

Are you referring to travel insurance or someone's personal insurance? 

 

I was thinking of travel insurance. You make some good points.

[ontheweb]

14 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

So if they are going to test people anyway what's the point insisting on vaccinations?

 

There's no science that I know of currently that suggests vaccinees won't or can't still spread Covid (if there are I'd like to see them)

 

And there is no science that shows that having had Covid provides long term immunity since it has not been around long enough for that to have been tested.

 

Is smallpox still around, or has the vaccine been effective?

 

Look at the difference in measles cases in NY state when the religious exemption for children having to take the vaccine was eliminated.

[ilikeanswers]

9 minutes ago, KnowTheScore said:

The world knows it's use like that of "conspiracy theory" is simply an pathetic attempt to shut down debate

 

I made no attempt to shut down any debate. If anything your tactic to completely deviate from what I was discussing is shutting down debate.

 

My point is your assumption that enforcing vaccines will some how end the cruise industry is not true because most people are not as concerned about vaccines as you are. Most people are concerned about being stuck on a ship with nowhere to dock or having no insurance coverage for hefty medical bills. They will happily take a vaccine if it means they can get back to a lifestyle they are accustomed to while also mitigating their very real fears.

 

You just have to look at IATA which is very publicly pushing the concept of some form of vaccine passports. They are certainly are not quaking in their boots that their stance might lose customers who fear vaccines because those people are such a tiny minority they can afford to lose them for the majority who will take a vaccine if it means getting back on a plane again.

 

You seem to think cruise ships are some sort of bastions of free choice but look at how they operate, they always try to monopolise every aspect of their business. If you never cruise again because of enforced vaccination they will not care, there will be plenty of people to replace you. 

[Roz]

1 hour ago, KnowTheScore said:

Cruise lines can not discriminate so there are not going to be cruises for vaccinated and unvaccinated demographics.  Whatever rules they agree on will apply to all cruises.   If those rules mandate vaccinations then they will lose a significant degree of custom.   Business suicide.   If they sensibly do not mandate vaccinations then the old and vulnerable are going to get vaccinated anyway because they need to protect themselves.  That part is a constant.  So it makes no sense to alienate and lose the sales of the other demographic.

 

Have you considered the cruise lines may lose business if they don't mandate vaccinations?  And if certain countries or ports require vaccinations, the decision will be out of the cruise lines' hands if they want to sail to those places.

[clo]

4 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

If anything your tactic to completely deviate from what I was discussing is shutting down debate.

You know, don't you, that there's a "report" feature? Heavens knows, it's been used on me 🙂

[clo]

2 hours ago, Shmoo here said:

Only in some countries.  

Not in the US, right?

[clo]

13 minutes ago, Roz said:

Have you considered the cruise lines may lose business if they don't mandate vaccinations? 

We have a cruise booked for 3rd quarter 2022 and are looking at one for 4th quarter 2022. Both contingent upon their being a solid vaccination with a solid track record.

[ontheweb]

12 minutes ago, clo said:

We have a cruise booked for 3rd quarter 2022 and are looking at one for 4th quarter 2022. Both contingent upon their being a solid vaccination with a solid track record.

And on the cruise lines mandating vaccines in order to board??????

[Charles4515]

In the USA states can mandate vaccination. This was affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1905.  I don’t think though that any state will mandate general vaccination. There may be mandates for some subsets of the population.  Some employers will mandate their employees get vaccinated. Right now some mandate COVID tests. It is only a short step to mandating vaccination.  I had to have a pre operative Covid test today for minor surgery. No test, no then no surgery. Some ports require mandatory Covid tests. Can certainly imagine them requiring tourist vaccination.  

Edited December 2, 2020 by Charles4515

[Roz]

53 minutes ago, KnowTheScore said:

 The people wanting vaccines mandated are the older vulnerable people who are at significant risk.   This limited demographic is a constant, they will be vaccinated and they will cruise simply as.   There's no point either logically or in business terms to alienate the other demographic of people who are not at risk from Covid and who will all be rigorously tested for Covid before they step on-board.

 

How do you define old and vulnerable?  The Baby Boomers?  If that's the case, in 2019, Boomers made up 21.19% of the US population, and Millennials were slightly more at 22%.  Not a "limited" demographic, and Boomers have the time and money to travel and cruise.  

 

How are the cruise lines going to rigorously test everyone who hasn't been vaccinated?  

 

My concern with a good segment of the cruising population not being vaccinated is an outbreak onboard, causing the cruise to be terminated and/or the ship being quarantined.  Not to mention the onboard experience being altered in order to contain the outbreak.

 

[Oulton Jim]

That last para of Roz sums it up imo. The CDC have already stipulated the points she made about a Covid guest onboard. If the incidence of this can be brought to a minimum by stipulating all passengers to be vaccinated -then it gets my thumbs-up. 

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, KnowTheScore said:

It won't happen.  Port Authorities will not be interested in who is and who is not vaccinated.  It's a meaningless piece of information. 

 

So my experience of presenting crew vaccination records to port authorities for inspection, in a number of ports, is only a figment of my imagination.🙁

 

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, clo said:

You know, don't you, that there's a "report" feature? Heavens knows, it's been used on me 🙂

 

I didn't see it as a reportable offence. I just found it hypocritical to accuse me of shutting down debate when I am discussing the topic at hand and the poster is completely deviating from the topic rather than engaging with my points. Clearly from the posts since they are still under the delusion their position on vaccines is the majority and that cruise line will care about losing this small minority as customers🙄. 

[clo]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

And on the cruise lines mandating vaccines in order to board??????

Yep.

[clo]

41 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

So my experience of presenting crew vaccination records to port authorities for inspection, in a number of ports, is only a figment of my imagination.🙁

 

There you go trying to confuse him with the facts 🙂 

[clo]

1 hour ago, Roz said:

Boomers have the time and money to travel and cruise.

I wish I knew what % of passengers  are who go on cruises greater than, say, 10 days? 

[SelectSys]

9 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

... They will happily take a vaccine if it means they can get back to a lifestyle they are accustomed to while also mitigating their very real fears.

 

You just have to look at IATA which is very publicly pushing the concept of some form of vaccine passports. They are certainly are not quaking in their boots that their stance might lose customers who fear vaccines...

Your first point summarizes my view on vaccination as it relates to COVID although I would have stated mitigating most risks rather than fear.  Full disclosure - I also get an annual flu vaccination

 

I think what has the travel industry quaking is the inability to conduct business at a meaningful level mixed in with an attempt to minimize the threat of litigation from someone over COVID.   Perhaps I am wrong on this front as someone you lives in an extremely litigious society/state/country. 

 

6 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

...  Whatever rules they agree on will apply to all cruises.   If those rules mandate vaccinations then they will lose a significant degree of custom.   Business suicide.   

 

No it's just an indicator of the mentality of some cruisers.  They will spend £1000s on a cruise ticket but will then keep putting their daily biscuits in their suitcases so the steward replaces them each day and will then take them home with them.  Yet the quantity they have could be bought for £2-£3 in their local supermarket when they get back.  Go figure !   It's a penny pinching "I'm going to get my money's worth" mentality that doesn't lend itself to good on-board revenues for cruise lines imo.

 

I think we disagree on the number of passengers who will be lost if vaccinations are required.  I also think you need to consider the simplification of logistics and reduction in possible virus outbreaks if the cruise lines mandate vaccinations.  I am sure they figure that the lost revenue will be made up in savings through reduced COVID disruptions.

 

A lot of the cruise ship appeal is based on the appeal of buffets.  It just seems all priced into the line's plans.  I am sure the line's revenue models can predict by cabin number, demographics and passenger history how much you are going to spend onboard. 

 

2 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

...  Can certainly imagine them requiring tourist vaccination.  

I agree, it just helps ports lower the probability that a cruise ship will cause a problem.

 

2 hours ago, Roz said:

 

How do you define old and vulnerable?    Not a "limited" demographic, and Boomers have the time and money to travel and cruise.  

 

My concern with a good segment of the cruising population not being vaccinated is an outbreak onboard, causing the cruise to be terminated and/or the ship being quarantined.  Not to mention the onboard experience being altered in order to contain the outbreak.

 

 

The graphic below suggests your statement regarding Boomers is correct from a money perspective.  You are likely correct on the time perspective as well as more and more Boomers are now retired.  The one thing you didn't mention is health.  Some modicum of health is also necessary for travel.

 

Cruise lines don't want you stuck on a ship either.  That's why the vaccination would help minimize any spreads and get people off the ship and back home faster.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-less-wealth-net-worth-compared-to-boomers-2019-12

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by SelectSys

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

So my experience of presenting crew vaccination records to port authorities for inspection, in a number of ports, is only a figment of my imagination.🙁

 

Facts, please don't confuse someone who knows everything with actual facts based on experience.

[Tippyton]

This could be posted on many of the boards but we have more Carnival under our dive belt than any other.  I'm thinking that a thought-out restart should include either a vaccination certificate, proof that you've had the virus, or testing prior to embarkation.  No mask required, cruise at your own risk.  We need to quit with the fear mongering and managing to the lowest common denominator.  

 

On a different note, there has been some noise about the US providing vaccines to foreign countries prior to everybody in the US getting it.  Not a fan, but then I thought about it reading these boards.  Small businesses and the working poor have suffered the most.  So have small countries.  I would be ok with the US providing vaccines to the smaller Caribbean countries - St. Lucia, Grenadines, etc.  It would provide both cruisers and cruise destinations with FREEDOM and peace of mind.

[TNcruising02]

I think proof of vaccination will be required for any cruise in 2021.  Hopefully, that will mean cruising without masks.

[JerseyGirlJen]

I'm with you.  At this point in time I'm not eager to get the vaccine, however I do think that in order to travel they will mandate it, so at that point in time I'll have to cross that bridge because giving up travel is not something I'm going to do.  

[clo]

1 hour ago, Tippyton said:

proof that you've had the virus,

But that doesn't mean you're immune.

[Charles4515]

There will be vaccination cards and a database. 
 

https://apple.news/A19Slr0RuSy-NyxP8mUcwVQ