Vaccination Certification?

[clo]

25 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Janis Joplin,

I've occasionally wondered if she had lived what she would have been like.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, clo said:

I've occasionally wondered if she had lived what she would have been like.

I think she would have stayed pretty much the same.

[cruisemom42]

9 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

We're going to have 1-2 years of such protocols until Covid effectively dies a death and becomes an almost unknown Coronavirus like SARS or MERS.   We have never needed vaccine certificates for those bugs nor any other virulent bugs like eBola.   

 

Why didn't we need them? I'll let the numbers speak for themselves:

 

Number of fatalities to date from SARS (worldwide):  812

Number of fatalities to date from MERS (worldwide):  866

Number of fatalities to date from Ebola (worldwide):  13,500 

Number of fatalities to date from COVID-19 (worldwide):  1.47 million

 

To date, more than 100 times more fatalities from COVID-19 than from Ebola -- beside which SARS and MERS look like rounding errors. And at this point COVID-19 fatalities have no end in sight until a vaccine is available.

 

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

3 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Why didn't we need them? I'll let the numbers speak for themselves:

 

Number of fatalities to date from SARS (worldwide):  812

Number of fatalities to date from MERS (worldwide):  866

Number of fatalities to date from Ebola (worldwide):  13,500 

Number of fatalities to date from COVID-19 (worldwide):  1.47 million

 

To date, more than 100 times more fatalities from COVID-19 than from Ebola -- beside which SARS and MERS look like rounding errors. And at this point COVID-19 fatalities have no end in sight until a vaccine is available.

 

 

 

You are wasting your time trying to explain these differences to people who simply refuse to recognize a reality which they do not like.

[clo]

4 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Why didn't we need them? I'll let the numbers speak for themselves:

 

Over the last four years I've found that a closed mind is impossible to argue with. But you and others can hopefully show facts to others here. Thanks as always.

[cruisemom42]

10 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

You are wasting your time trying to explain these differences to people who simply refuse to recognize a reality which they do not like.

 

Words I live by:

 

[clo]

1 minute ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Words I live by:

 

I totally agree and practice that.

[jtwind]

I have 2 major grocery stores close by.  One has a reputation of taking the virus seriously and enforcing mask rules, and the other store, not so much.  It seems that Americans, as a group, like having a choice in this matter.  Now, of course, there's no contract tracing to show how many people got the virus in the store that doesn't enforce mask rules.

 

When it comes to requiring vaccinations for trips or for entering a country, they're not going to need to do much contact tracing to figure out that not requiring vaccinations causes problems.  So, if only some, but not all countries and cruise lines require vaccinations, it's only going to be a short mater of time before they all require them.

[navybankerteacher]

28 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Words I live by:

 

As do I — you should certainly express yourself, but perhaps to the board, and not to the deniers who want to engage in argument.  Ignoring an argumentative fool, while going on about ones business, has started to strike me as preferred.

[clo]

24 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

As do I — you should certainly express yourself, but perhaps to the board, and not to the deniers who want to engage in argument.  Ignoring an argumentative fool, while going on about ones business, has started to strike me as preferred.

I do it on all social media. Got rid of a number of FB 'friends' in the last four years that way.

[sverigecruiser]

1 hour ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

In order to expect ships to have passengers and crew to be vaccinated against Covid you must surely first expect ALL of your own citizens to be so vaccinated.  Otherwise the entire exercise would be a total sham and farce.  What would be the point forcing a cruise ship with 3000 pax on board to all be vaccinated against Covid, if your country of say 40 million people itself, only has 60% of the population vaccinated?   Think that through.

 

So for what you suggest to be in place they must first pass through legislation that mandates vaccines for everyone and  that I would suggest crosses a line which a HUGE proportion of the world's populations will vehemently oppose.  Vaccination MUST be a free choice for all.

 

 

Are you saying that all citizens in countries requiring Yellow fever vaccinations for visitors are vaccinated for Yellow fever?

 

I'm absolutely sure that vaccination will not be mandated in Sweden but it's still possible that the European Union will agree that people arriving to the European Union must be vaccinated, even if I doubt it.

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, clo said:

I've occasionally wondered if she had lived what she would have been like.

Do you wonder where Jimi Hendrix would have taken his music? (The CD of his first album is in my car's player at the moment and I will be hearing some of it later this morning.)

[jtwind]

4 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

 

This is the part where the logic fails for me.

 

In order to expect ships to have passengers and crew to be vaccinated against Covid you must surely first expect ALL of your own citizens to be so vaccinated.  Otherwise the entire exercise would be a total sham and farce.  What would be the point forcing a cruise ship with 3000 pax on board to all be vaccinated against Covid, if your country of say 40 million people itself, only has 60% of the population vaccinated?   Think that through.

 

New Zealand could benefit from requiring everyone to be vaccinated before entering.

[electro]

14 hours ago, ontheweb said:

How old are these young'uns? If they are over 26, they have lived too long. After all if Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison* all died at that age, there must be nothing worthwhile after that age.

 

As a member of the "don't trust anyone over 30" generation, it freaked me out when our son turned 30. Now that he is past 40, I suppose I have lived well past my usefulness.

 

*If you young'uns have not heard of those 3, try wikipedia.

minor correction, they all died at 27, not 26, as did Brian Jones, Kurt Cobain and Amy Winehouse.

Look up 27 club.

[jtwind]

53 minutes ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

Why?

They're virus free.  They could start allowing people back into the country before having all of it's population vaccinated.  

[jtwind]

3 minutes ago, KnowTheScore said:

 Really?   I'd say that was totally unproven at this stage.  Here are examples why that's the case.  Fully vaccinated people who nevertheless carried and spread disease and sparked outbreaks.

 

 1.  Outbreak of mumps that spread widely amongst vaccinated kids

Mumps Outbreak --- New York and New Jersey

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5905a1.htm

 

2. Measles outbreak sparked off in New York by a twice vaccinated individual

Outbreak of Measles Among Persons With Prior Evidence of Immunity

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/58/9/1205/2895266

 

3. Measles virus RNA found in urine of vaccinated kids

Detection of measles virus RNA in urine specimens from vaccine recipients

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7494055/

 

4. Occurrence of vaccine-derived rotavirus transmission from a vaccinated infant to an older, unvaccinated sibling, resulting in symptomatic rotavirus gastroenteritis that required emergency department care.
 

Sibling Transmission of Vaccine-Derived Rotavirus

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/2/e438

 

5. Studies Show that Vaccinated Individuals Spread Disease

Should the Recently Vaccinated be Quarantined to Prevent Outbreaks?

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2015/02/02/702199/10118172/en/Studies-Show-that-Vaccinated-Individuals-Spread-Disease.html

 

 

People really should do their research and stop believing the BS in the mainstream media.

 

The vaccines are primarily there to protect the individual if/when their body is exposed to the virus.

This in no way means that the person can not or will not carry and spread the virus.

 

If you want to prevent infected people coming into New Zealand then you test them on entry using a very reliable test mechanism.  If they are positive you refuse entry or mandate 14 days quarantine/isolation.   It's that simple and it doesn't need to have any dependency on who is vaccinated or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info.  But why the negative remark about mainstream media?

 

I'm not trying to start an argument, and i really do appreciate the info.  But the knee jerk reaction to someone having a problem with mainstream media is to label them as being a conspiracy theory type, and immediately dismissing what they have to say.  Please, no offense meant.

[ontheweb]

58 minutes ago, electro said:

minor correction, they all died at 27, not 26, as did Brian Jones, Kurt Cobain and Amy Winehouse.

Look up 27 club.

You are right, and I knew that. 26 was a typo.😃

 

Add Tim Harden. He was a folk singer, not a rocker, but he did play the original Woodstock festival (Friday night).

[clo]

9 minutes ago, jtwind said:

 

Thanks for the info.  But why the negative remark about mainstream media?

 

I'm not trying to start an argument, and i really do appreciate the info.  But the knee jerk reaction to someone having a problem with mainstream media is to label them as being a conspiracy theory type, and immediately dismissing what they have to say.  Please, no offense meant.

And I agree with you. Perhaps the poster would tone that part down and people will pay more attention to their comments.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, electro said:

minor correction, they all died at 27, not 26, as did Brian Jones, Kurt Cobain and Amy Winehouse.

Look up 27 club.

 I just did, thank you for the suggestion.

 

I did not realize Pigpen from the Grateful Dead was also a member.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, KnowTheScore said:

 Really?   I'd say that was totally unproven at this stage.  Here are examples why that's the case.  Fully vaccinated people who nevertheless carried and spread disease and sparked outbreaks.

 

 1.  Outbreak of mumps that spread widely amongst vaccinated kids

Mumps Outbreak --- New York and New Jersey

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5905a1.htm

 

2. Measles outbreak sparked off in New York by a twice vaccinated individual

Outbreak of Measles Among Persons With Prior Evidence of Immunity

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/58/9/1205/2895266

 

3. Measles virus RNA found in urine of vaccinated kids

Detection of measles virus RNA in urine specimens from vaccine recipients

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7494055/

 

4. Occurrence of vaccine-derived rotavirus transmission from a vaccinated infant to an older, unvaccinated sibling, resulting in symptomatic rotavirus gastroenteritis that required emergency department care.
 

Sibling Transmission of Vaccine-Derived Rotavirus

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/2/e438

 

5. Studies Show that Vaccinated Individuals Spread Disease

Should the Recently Vaccinated be Quarantined to Prevent Outbreaks?

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2015/02/02/702199/10118172/en/Studies-Show-that-Vaccinated-Individuals-Spread-Disease.html

 

 

People really should do their research and stop believing the BS in the mainstream media.

 

 

 

I love how you get angry with others for providing "anecdotal" evidence of COVID re-infections, yet many of the "studies" you love to cite are not much more than that -- isolated occurrences that are published more because they represent a surprising exception to a well-established norm. For my thoughts on your citations:

 

1. The mumps component of the MMR vaccine is well known to be less robust than the other two components (measles, rubella), so this is not particularly surprising in itself that there are occasional outbreaks. And of course, as it stated IN THE ARTICLE itself, "The mumps vaccine has greatly reduced the incidence of mumps in the United States. From 1967, when the mumps vaccine was first licensed, to the early 2000s, the number of reported cases decreased from 186,000 to <500 annually." (2). 

 

2. Another direct quotation FROM THE ARTICLE you cite:  "An unusual outbreak of measles was investigated in which all of the patients had either 2 documented doses of MMR vaccine or a positive result recorded for measles IgG antibody in the past. The index patient had 2 documented doses of MMR vaccine before infection and subsequently transmitted disease to 4 contacts. Although other outbreaks have been reported in which persons with a history of MMR vaccination were confirmed with measles, this is the first report in which a person with a verified secondary vaccine failure despite receipt of two doses of MMR was demonstrated to be capable of transmitting disease to other individuals [8–13, 33].  Hardly a ringing endorsement for your point of view.

 

3. This report is more about trumpeting the sensitivity of their new tool, than about transmission. Although the authors did detect virus in the urine, they did not even attempt to make any link with whether this virus causes infection in others -- in fact, they state that  "...it is not known whether individuals who do not display the full range of clinical signs characteristic of measles infection (e.g., the patients in whom they detected virus) are capable of transmitting the virus to other susceptible individuals."

 

I could go on but it's just not worth it. Let me just paraphrase your quote above in summary: "People really should do their FULL research and stop believing the BS spread by those with little or no understanding of the headlines they mindlessly trumpet."

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

41 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I love how you get angry with others for providing "anecdotal" evidence of COVID re-infections, yet many of the "studies" you love to cite are not much more than that -- isolated occurrences that are published more because they represent a surprising exception to a well-established norm. For my thoughts on your citations:

 

1. The mumps component of the MMR vaccine is well known to be less robust than the other two components (measles, rubella), so this is not particularly surprising in itself that there are occasional outbreaks. And of course, as it stated IN THE ARTICLE itself, "The mumps vaccine has greatly reduced the incidence of mumps in the United States. From 1967, when the mumps vaccine was first licensed, to the early 2000s, the number of reported cases decreased from 186,000 to <500 annually." (2). 

 

2. Another direct quotation FROM THE ARTICLE you cite:  "An unusual outbreak of measles was investigated in which all of the patients had either 2 documented doses of MMR vaccine or a positive result recorded for measles IgG antibody in the past. The index patient had 2 documented doses of MMR vaccine before infection and subsequently transmitted disease to 4 contacts. Although other outbreaks have been reported in which persons with a history of MMR vaccination were confirmed with measles, this is the first report in which a person with a verified secondary vaccine failure despite receipt of two doses of MMR was demonstrated to be capable of transmitting disease to other individuals [8–13, 33].  Hardly a ringing endorsement for your point of view.

 

3. This report is more about trumpeting the sensitivity of their new tool, than about transmission. Although the authors did detect virus in the urine, they did not even attempt to make any link with whether this virus causes infection in others -- in fact, they state that  "...it is not known whether individuals who do not display the full range of clinical signs characteristic of measles infection (e.g., the patients in whom they detected virus) are capable of transmitting the virus to other susceptible individuals."

 

I could go on but it's just not worth it. Let me just paraphrase your quote above in summary: "People really should do their FULL research and stop believing the BS spread by those with little or no understanding of the headlines they mindlessly trumpet."

 

 

I wish you luck in your efforts to teach him “the score”.

[Heidi13]

9 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

This is the part where the logic fails for me.

 

In order to expect ships to have passengers and crew to be vaccinated against Covid you must surely first expect ALL of your own citizens to be so vaccinated.  Otherwise the entire exercise would be a total sham and farce.  What would be the point forcing a cruise ship with 3000 pax on board to all be vaccinated against Covid, if your country of say 40 million people itself, only has 60% of the population vaccinated?   Think that through.

 

 

Unfortunately, when dealing with world travel, logic and science frequently is not applied by Governments, as based on my experiences in the 70's, many countries had different requirements for citizens and visitors.

 

When working worldwide, we had a simple choice with respect to vaccinations. To work in the marine industry we required almost every vaccination available, if we didn't want the vaccination - no problem, just look for a different career.  Were logic or science applied, probably not, as many countries arbitrarily applied different requirements for visitors.

 

Many countries that did not require vaccinations for citizens required all the crew to be vaccinated. No debate on why we were treated differently than their citizens. The only option for anti-vaxers was change of career.

 

Now 45 - 50 years later, I envisage a number of countries returning to those days. Ship's crew members will have the same option we had - get vaccinated or change careers. The option for pax will be get vaccinated, or limit your travel options.

 

You can raise all sorts of science and logic challenges, but in reality regardless of whether counties require all citizens to be vaccinated, I fully expect that many will require that standard for visitors. 

[navybankerteacher]

8 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Unfortunately, when dealing with world travel, logic and science frequently is not applied by Governments, as based on my experiences in the 70's, many countries had different requirements for citizens and visitors.

 

When working worldwide, we had a simple choice with respect to vaccinations. To work in the marine industry we required almost every vaccination available, if we didn't want the vaccination - no problem, just look for a different career.  Were logic or science applied, probably not, as many countries arbitrarily applied different requirements for visitors.

 

Many countries that did not require vaccinations for citizens required all the crew to be vaccinated. No debate on why we were treated differently than their citizens. The only option for anti-vaxers was change of career.

 

Now 45 - 50 years later, I envisage a number of countries returning to those days. Ship's crew members will have the same option we had - get vaccinated or change careers. The option for pax will be get vaccinated, or limit your travel options.

 

You can raise all sorts of science and logic challenges, but in reality regardless of whether counties require all citizens to be vaccinated, I fully expect that many will require that standard for visitors. 

There is at least one bit of logic:  once you accept the notion that the more people who are vaccinated = the less chance of infection.  While a given country might not want to bear the expense of vaccinating all their citizens, they still will enjoy a lessened chance of infection if they require all visitors to be vaccinated.

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, KnowTheScore said:

They stand to lose a lot of customers who have no intention of getting vaccinated, who had previously had COVID and thus already have plenty of immunity.  Why would they possibly want to shoot themselves in the foot by doing that especially given how many $millions they have been losing during the "no sail" order.   Just business suicide imo.

 

I think you might be suffering echo chamber bias. Maybe in your community anti vaxers are a majority but in most of the world they are a tiny minority despite how loud they shout 😂. In Australia they only make up 6% of the population while one study in America suggests only 8%. It is too small a market for cruise lines to care about. On top of that the fear of being on a ship that can't dock is very real for regular cruisers and since insurance has no coverage for COVID19 related expenses having a vaccine that can mitigate those issues is going to only bring more people confidence to cruise than what they will lose out from the anti vaxer brigade. 

[clo]

1 minute ago, ilikeanswers said:

insurance

Ooh, and what about insurance companies? Maybe THEY'LL require vaccinations.