Staff wages are they based on the ship occupancy

[BruceMuzz]

On 11/25/2023 at 6:16 AM, Kristelle said:

 

 

Tips jars in Australia are for small change only - if you see any clear jars, they very rarely have other than coins in them and often they are fundraisers for local sporting clubs or charities rather than going to staff.

or the coins go to staff christmas break up or something like that - not to wages on the day, so a quiet day is no different pay wise to a busy day

 

Have never seen tipping shown o n receipts here and I have lived here for 6 decades - service charge for public holidays or GST (goods and services tax) - but they don't go to individual staff

We never pay tips in restaruants in Australia - possibly some cunning waiters recognise American tourists and try their luck - but it isnt Australian system or something Australians do here.

 

Visiting somewhere of course is different to living there.

I have never lived in Australia.

I do spend quite a bit of time there every year when my ship makes a circumnavigation of Australia and New Zealand.

When my crew and I go ashore in Australia, we often visit restaurants and bars. As soon as the locals realize we are not Australian, we find all sorts of “special charges” on our bills: holiday taxes, group service charges, special taxes, etc. These charges are not small change - but rather large amounts.  When we ask about them we are told that this is mandatory. Yet when we ask Aussies about them, they have never heard of such things.

Edited November 26, 2023 by BruceMuzz

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

I have never lived in Australia.

I do spend quite a bit of time there every year when my ship makes a circumnavigation of Australia and New Zealand.

When my crew and I go ashore in Australia, we often visit restaurants and bars. As soon as the locals realize we are not Australian, we find all sorts of “special charges” on our bills: holiday taxes, group service charges, special taxes, etc. These charges are not small change - but rather large amounts.  When we ask about them we are told that this is mandatory. Yet when we ask Aussies about them, they have never heard of such things.

 

Wow, very interesting. Is this something you noted recently, or have you experienced these charges for many years.

 

I also haven't lived in Australia, but have visited many times on both cruise ships and cargo ships, starting in 1977, completing the entire Aussie cruise season. We were in Sydney every 2-weeks and unless on the 12-4 watch headed ashore for lunch every turnaround. On the cargo ship we were in each of Sydney,, Melbourne and Adelaide for a week, and went for a run ashore every evening.

 

Our last trip was in 2020, when we spent 3-days in Sydney. One day we did a pub crawl through The Rock and another day took the ferry out to Manly for lunch and a walk around.

 

Don't ever recall any of the additional charges you mentioned, and I check my bills carefully. I don't like restaurants that add a mandatory "Service Charge", so would be right ticked off with the extra charges you experienced.

 

[BruceMuzz]

33 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Wow, very interesting. Is this something you noted recently, or have you experienced these charges for many years.

 

I also haven't lived in Australia, but have visited many times on both cruise ships and cargo ships, starting in 1977, completing the entire Aussie cruise season. We were in Sydney every 2-weeks and unless on the 12-4 watch headed ashore for lunch every turnaround. On the cargo ship we were in each of Sydney,, Melbourne and Adelaide for a week, and went for a run ashore every evening.

 

Our last trip was in 2020, when we spent 3-days in Sydney. One day we did a pub crawl through The Rock and another day took the ferry out to Manly for lunch and a walk around.

 

Don't ever recall any of the additional charges you mentioned, and I check my bills carefully. I don't like restaurants that add a mandatory "Service Charge", so would be right ticked off with the extra charges you experienced.

 

We have been seeing this for about 7 years now, especially up North and on the West Coast of Australia.

[RobertGhost]

I have a friend on MS Queen Victoria and everything I said above comes directly from her. Classically she works about 10 hours a day, 6 contracts in 5 years, contract for 6 months (although Filipinos had for 9) Accommodation, food, flights, tests, vaccinations are funded by the employer. Earnings in the restaurant depend on the position and range from about US$1,200-4,000 or more. You can also count on tips. She usually serves about 20 people, at whose beck and call she is, fulfilling their every wish (even quarantine and Covid survived). 

[sanger727]

There are a lot of jobs where the pay fluctuates; sometimes based on factors outside of the workers control. As stated, a lot of position in the US derive their primary income from tips so if the business isn't busy, they make less. When I waitressed they tried to even that out with the assignment of shifts. Typically week day lunches made alot less than weekend evenings - so you would have to work week day time lunches to be scheduled for a weekend evening shift. Otherwise, no one would work lunch.

 

Also a lot of sales jobs are commission based - theoretically it puts the burned on the employee to "earn their keep". But if business is just slow, there's not a lot they can do.  I know a lot of car sales employees struggled when there were massive inventory shortages. There were fewer cars to sell so impossible to make the same amount of money.

[Heidi13]

8 hours ago, RobertGhost said:

I have a friend on MS Queen Victoria and everything I said above comes directly from her. Classically she works about 10 hours a day, 6 contracts in 5 years, contract for 6 months (although Filipinos had for 9) Accommodation, food, flights, tests, vaccinations are funded by the employer. Earnings in the restaurant depend on the position and range from about US$1,200-4,000 or more. You can also count on tips. She usually serves about 20 people, at whose beck and call she is, fulfilling their every wish (even quarantine and Covid survived). 

 

The 3 of us responding are providing first hand information and have close to 100 yrs combined experience at sea, in senior positions. I didn't dispute the working condition and don't believe the others did either, what I disputed was your statement that the cost of living is lower for seafarers. Yes, room & board is mandated, as is medical care, to/from the ship, etc. but many also have to maintain a residence at home.

 

Cunard's contacts used to be similar to P&O/Princess, who both myself and our son worked for, and if a hotel rating on a 6-month contract, she is probably European.

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, RobertGhost said:

I have a friend on MS Queen Victoria and everything I said above comes directly from her. Classically she works about 10 hours a day, 6 contracts in 5 years, contract for 6 months (although Filipinos had for 9) Accommodation, food, flights, tests, vaccinations are funded by the employer. Earnings in the restaurant depend on the position and range from about US$1,200-4,000 or more. You can also count on tips. She usually serves about 20 people, at whose beck and call she is, fulfilling their every wish (even quarantine and Covid survived). 

Do you mean to say that accommodation is paid for while the person is on shore?  Do they live out of a hotel, so the cruise line only pays for accommodation while they are on shore?  Are you saying that "tests" (medical?) and vaccinations are "funded" by the cruise line when the person is on shore?

Even at 6 six month contracts (36 months total) in 5 years (60 months total), that means the person is on shore 24 months (and not being paid).  Did they give up their apartment/flat/home for the 36 months at sea, and then find new flat/home at the end of each contract?  If not, then they were, as we are saying, paying rent/mortgage on a flat/home that they are not occupying while at sea.  Don't see the savings in expenses there.

6 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

I didn't dispute the working condition and don't believe the others did either, what I disputed was your statement that the cost of living is lower for seafarers.

Total agreement, Andy.  While I was sailing, for 46 years, sure my families food expense went down by one person (out of a total of 5), and I wasn't driving my truck, so the gas was less (but still had to pay insurance), so yes, my living expenses were lower when I was at sea, but I would dispute the  "much lower" statement.  And, it could have been higher, if something broke around the house that I would normally fix, but that my wife had to hire someone to come in because I wasn't there.

[Kristelle]

22 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

I have never lived in Australia.

I do spend quite a bit of time there every year when my ship makes a circumnavigation of Australia and New Zealand.

When my crew and I go ashore in Australia, we often visit restaurants and bars. As soon as the locals realize we are not Australian, we find all sorts of “special charges” on our bills: holiday taxes, group service charges, special taxes, etc. These charges are not small change - but rather large amounts.  When we ask about them we are told that this is mandatory. Yet when we ask Aussies about them, they have never heard of such things.

 

 

There are certainly public holiday surcharges at many restaruants - staff are paid more on PH's so this is passed on to customers.

 

There is also GST (goods and services tax, similar to VAT in UK) which will be included in total cost but sometimes itemised separately. 

 

GST is mandatory on all but exempt items (exempt items usually being essential supplies, certainly not restaruant meals) and PH surcharge, sometimes weekend surcharge, is common practice.

 

These are not tips though, everyone pays them, and they legally must be shown upfront - nothing to do with being Australian or not,  - and, my original point, they make no difference to staff wages on the day - staff wages are already x dollars per hour and that does not change dependant on how many customers there are on the day

 

Everyone here has heard of those things so perhaps it is the way you are asking the question, who knows.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Kristelle
typo

[frantic36]

22 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

As soon as the locals realize we are not Australian, we find all sorts of “special charges” on our bills: holiday taxes, group service charges, special taxes, etc. These charges are not small change - but rather large amounts.  When we ask about them we are told that this is mandatory. Yet when we ask Aussies about them, they have never heard of such things.

 

 

Extra charges for public holidays and Sundays are normal because staff get higher penalty wages on those days.

Goods & Services tax are always included in the total price but it isn't extra it is just written on the bill. In America I have to remind myself the price I see on the price tag is not what I pay at the till as they will add on taxes.

I'm not sure what group service charges you are referring too as that statement is vague.

 

Everyone pays them, these it isn't just because you're American. I have no idea why the Aussies you ask don't know about them because they should as they are normal.

[MWarren3549]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:36 PM, Kristelle said:

No, not same result.

 

If staff are paid a set wage ant there are no tips then staff get paid same hourly wage regardless of how busy it it. 

You know,like most places in the world.

 

LOL  It always amuses me when people apply US norms and labor laws and ADA laws to companies OUT OF THE COUNTRY .... Most staff are paid an X $ amount for their contract.  Or a set X $ amount PER MONTH of their contract ... they are NOT paid an hourly wage for the 14 - 18 hours a day that they work.  

 

FYI - I work very closely with a cruise line employee and am in the middle of processing his Visa docs to submit to homeland security.  

Edited January 5 by MWarren3549

[Kristelle]

Well thanks for quoting me  a month later with that.

 

Clearly my post at that point in thread was about restaurants and was not about US norms and labour laws at all but about how it works in my country. 

 

LOl always amuses me when people don't read threads properly. 

[mjkacmom]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:11 PM, ldubs said:

 

To clarify, I am not suggesting the minimum wage is sufficient anywhere.   Repeating myself, I was addressing the way tipped employees are paid and taxed per the laws in place.  

 

Interestingly, while California cost of living is going to be higher than Maine's, I doubt it is anywhere near twice (except perhaps gasoline).  

$5.26 server minimum wage in NJ with one of the highest COL.

[Hlitner]

We find it interesting that folks here on CC (and elsewhere) always have questions about cruise ship staff compensation, working hours, etc.  I wonder how many of those folks ask the same questions about the folks that collect their garbage, the mail carrier, the counter person at the airport, the desk clerk at a hotel, etc.  

 

I understand that this sounds uncaring and perhaps crass, but I really could care less!  Why?  The folks who work on cruise ships are not slaves!  In fact, they must compete and jump through lots of hoops to get those jobs.  Like everyone else who must work, they make a choice.  In fact, because those jobs involve lots of extra "hoops" we can celebrate that they choose to work on ships (so we can cruise) but there compensation is something that should be between them and their employer...the cruise line or their third-party contractor.  Folks do need to understand that the crew, just like most adults, make choices about their profession.  If they are unhappy with their compensation, working hours, etc. they will often leave and go elsewhere.  We found it fascinating that about 80% of the staff on the new Explora Journeys 1 luxury cruise ship had zero experience on ships.  Most have a background in upscale resorts/restaurants (many in Dubai and the Middle East), but decided to give the cruise industry a try.  Some told us they would not return (after their first contract) and others told us they looked forward to their next contract and getting to see more of the world.  None complained of being slaves, being forced to take the jobs (which were difficult to get), etc.

 

Like many cruisers, we have a natural interest in the crew we meet on ships.  We are interested in their family, where they live (when not working), how much they like their jobs, etc.  After 50 years of cruising, we do have a few friends among various cruise ships (some senior officers and staff) and keep in touch with a few.  But we never ask them "how much do you make" anymore than we would ask that kind of question of our postal carrier, airline pilot, restaurant waiter, etc.

 

Hank

[sparks1093]

23 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We find it interesting that folks here on CC (and elsewhere) always have questions about cruise ship staff compensation, working hours, etc.  I wonder how many of those folks ask the same questions about the folks that collect their garbage, the mail carrier, the counter person at the airport, the desk clerk at a hotel, etc.  

 

I understand that this sounds uncaring and perhaps crass, but I really could care less!  Why?  The folks who work on cruise ships are not slaves!  In fact, they must compete and jump through lots of hoops to get those jobs.  Like everyone else who must work, they make a choice.  In fact, because those jobs involve lots of extra "hoops" we can celebrate that they choose to work on ships (so we can cruise) but there compensation is something that should be between them and their employer...the cruise line or their third-party contractor.  Folks do need to understand that the crew, just like most adults, make choices about their profession.  If they are unhappy with their compensation, working hours, etc. they will often leave and go elsewhere.  We found it fascinating that about 80% of the staff on the new Explora Journeys 1 luxury cruise ship had zero experience on ships.  Most have a background in upscale resorts/restaurants (many in Dubai and the Middle East), but decided to give the cruise industry a try.  Some told us they would not return (after their first contract) and others told us they looked forward to their next contract and getting to see more of the world.  None complained of being slaves, being forced to take the jobs (which were difficult to get), etc.

 

Like many cruisers, we have a natural interest in the crew we meet on ships.  We are interested in their family, where they live (when not working), how much they like their jobs, etc.  After 50 years of cruising, we do have a few friends among various cruise ships (some senior officers and staff) and keep in touch with a few.  But we never ask them "how much do you make" anymore than we would ask that kind of question of our postal carrier, airline pilot, restaurant waiter, etc.

 

Hank

Yes, they do make choices but that doesn't mean that people should remove the tips that pay them. I know you aren't saying that but there are folks that say exactly what you just did and end it with "since I'm not responsible for paying them and they choose this job I remove the tips". 

[Hlitner]

8 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Yes, they do make choices but that doesn't mean that people should remove the tips that pay them. I know you aren't saying that but there are folks that say exactly what you just did and end it with "since I'm not responsible for paying them and they choose this job I remove the tips". 

Completely agree that removing auto gratuities is not cool.  My complaint about the auto grat game is that we have long advocated that tips be included in the cruise fare, instead of playing this silly game of low balling cruise prices and later nailing folks with all kinds of add-ons.  While we are big fans of the all-inclusive pricing used by most of the luxury lines, we also cruise on some mass market lines (just finished 14 days on the Sky Princess) where they play the usual tip game.  

 

I think the bigger issue is that the mass market lines often play the "guilt tipping" game.  Some lines encourage passengers to tip extra for various crew members, after folks have already paid the auto tips.  It can reach the "silly" when you go to an alternative restaurant where you pay an extra fee, will often have grats added to that price (18% is not uncommon) and then still have a line on a check for extra tips!  And then there are the folks who are completely sold on tip guilt who always thing they should tip extra.  One poster here on CC often talks about handing out $100 tips like they are conffetti.  Yes, part of his motivation is to impress others that he is a big tipper (otherwise he would not talk about it) but he also thinks that those big tips will get him treated better than others.  

 

We in North America, have lived our lives in a tipping culture that is foreign to much of the world.  Cruise lines (and some others) take advantage of this tipping culture.  A European waiter will smile if you give him/her a 20% tip (after having paid a 10% Service Charge) knowing full well, that only North Americans do that kind of thing.  It is even crazier in Australia where we once had an Aussie "mate" ask us to "please do not tip" because he did not want his no-tipping culture ruined by "Ugly Americans."

 

Hank

[ontheweb]

16 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Yes, they do make choices but that doesn't mean that people should remove the tips that pay them. I know you aren't saying that but there are folks that say exactly what you just did and end it with "since I'm not responsible for paying them and they choose this job I remove the tips". 

The way those folks often express themselves is the cruise line should be paying them and somehow if I withhold my tips it will force them to do so. But mostly they either know they can get away with it or to give some credit come from totally non-tipping cultures and really do feel that way.

[Hlitner]

I guess in my early youth, I was forever changed by living for 2 years in Japan...where they have a strict non-tipping culture.  Just recently we were in Japan and I had a taxi fare of about 3780 yen.  I gave the driver 4000 and was about to get out of the taxi (but you need to wait for the driver to open the door) when he handed me exact change (to the yen).  I was about to tell him to "keep the change" when I had to remember that he may have viewed that as insulting.  So, I took the change with a smile and gave him a slight bow of the head along with an "arigato gazaimasu."

 

Hank

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

$5.26 server minimum wage in NJ with one of the highest COL.

That's not quite right. The minimum hourly wage for servers in NJ is $15.13 just as it is for most other jobs, but there is a tip credit of up to $9.87 that the employer may take against the $15.13, leaving

$5.26 as the hourly minimum cash wage that the employer must pay the server. 

The total of tips and cash wages can never be below $15.13 .

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped#foot1

3 New Jersey. An employer is eligible to apply a tip credit against the full state minimum hourly wage only if the tipped employees have been informed in advance of the amount of the cash wage that is to be paid; the amount of the tip credit claimed by the employer; that all tips received must be retained by the employee, except in case of a valid tip pool arrangement limited to tipped employees; and of the requirements of the relevant New Jersey regulations.There is a minimum wage of $13.73 per hour for seasonal and small employers who employ fewer than 6 people.

[Kristelle]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

It is even crazier in Australia where we once had an Aussie "mate" ask us to "please do not tip" because he did not want his no-tipping culture ruined by "Ugly Americans."

 

 

 

I don't think that is crazy, it isnt crazy just because it isnt your norm -  - I wouldnt use the words "Ugly Americans" - but  I would expect people from America to abide by the non tipping culture of non tipping countries they visit - as the mate said, we  we do not want our non tipping culture changed.

[Hlitner]

21 minutes ago, Kristelle said:

 

 

I don't think that is crazy, it isnt crazy just because it isnt your norm -  - I wouldnt use the words "Ugly Americans" - but  I would expect people from America to abide by the non tipping culture of non tipping countries they visit - as the mate said, we  we do not want our non tipping culture changed.

Completely agree and we are big advocates of folks respecting the culture of places where they are guests.  But we have met folks who think it is their goal in life to project their own culture on the world.  As world travelers, I think the tipping culture in North America has become completely warped!  Consider that a couple dining in a decent restaurant can easily run-up a $200 tab, and then they are expected to add $40-$50 to that (plus pay the usual sales taxes we have in much of the USA).  But in our society most folks accept this as fine and do not see any issue.  

 

Now consider cruise lines, some of which are moving to 20% gratuities.  Somebody buys an expensive bottle of beer for $10 and the cruise ship adds $2!  For what?  A bar tender who takes the bottle out of a cooler and pours the liquid into a glass?  or just consider a mass market line like Princess.  Go to an alternative restaurant like the Crown Grill and you are billed $39 + 18% (mandatory gratuity).  But folks have already paid a daily automatic gratuity not to mention having paid for a cruise that include food and now pay another $92 (per couple).  And you will find plenty of folks who think it is correct to slip a few more dollars to their waiter!  

 

My issue with our tipping culture is that the proponents do not seem to know where to draw a line.  Why don't we tip flight attendants 20% of the airline ticket price?  Should we all hand tips to the crew that helps us on and off the tenders?  Tipping culture is something we (North Americans) have accepted from birth (wonder if parents tip the nurses who help deliver their babies).   Cruise lines have embraced this culture and used it to "low ball" prices!  Something about this tipping culture has a bad smell.

 

Hank

[Kristelle]

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Completely agree and we are big advocates of folks respecting the culture of places where they are guests.  But we have met folks who think it is their goal in life to project their own culture on the world. 

 

Yes I agree.

 

That works both ways of course - so, as we said, Americans or whoever, when travelling in Australia should abide by non tipping customs (we sometimes do 'keep the change' for taxis and suchlike but go no further than that.)

and Australians or whoever ,when travelling in US or anywhere should abide by tipping customs there - we did that ,researched what to do and did it, when we went to Hawaii for instance.

(I have not been to mainland US)

 

My personal preference is  all inclusive pre paid tipping trips - so my river  cruises with Scenic worked that way, and my group land trips likewise.

[Hlitner]

11 minutes ago, Kristelle said:

 

Yes I agree.

 

That works both ways of course - so, as we said, Americans or whoever, when travelling in Australia should abide by non tipping customs (we sometimes do 'keep the change' for taxis and suchlike but go no further than that.)

and Australians or whoever ,when travelling in US or anywhere should abide by tipping customs there - we did that ,researched what to do and did it, when we went to Hawaii for instance.

(I have not been to mainland US)

 

My personal preference is  all inclusive pre paid tipping trips - so my river  cruises with Scenic worked that way, and my group land trips likewise.

You need to visit.  And you might be shocked.  Lets say you decide to visit New York City (a popular place with tourists).  You decide to buy tickets to a Broadway show and get routine seats for about $120 (per ticket).  When you get to the theater, you decide to get a drink and will pay an inflated amount for that drink with the servers expecting a nice tip.  When you walk into the seating area you will be helped (and given a program) and many would also tip this person a few dollars.

 

Later you go to a mediocre NYC restaurant.  Assuming you drink wine, the bill will likely be in that $200 range (for 2) I mentioned earlier.  In NYC they will expect a MINIMUM 18% tip and many think 25% is reasonable.  Your bill will also have 8 1/2 % added for sales tax.  So that $200 meal will now cost you more then $250!  And if you get a taxi back to your hotel that driver will expect a 20% tip.  And if NYC follows through on its current proposal, there will be an additional fee for simply being in NYC (they will probably call it a "congestion fee").  

 

And I should mention that the $200 meal would not even be at a really good restaurant.  For that you are probably talking about $300-$400 plus tax and tip.

 

Come to think of it, you might want to simply stay in Australia :).  

 

Hank

[Kristelle]

6 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Come to think of it, you might want to simply stay in Australia :). 

 

 

Well clearly not, since I am on a travel forum 🤣😂

 

 

[ldubs]

On 1/5/2024 at 5:57 AM, mjkacmom said:

$5.26 server minimum wage in NJ with one of the highest COL.

 

It is $5.26 plus the tip credit to achieve NJ's minimum wage.  If the base hourly + tip credit is less than the NJ minimum, the employer must pay out the difference.  In other words, they make at least NJ's minimum wage.    

[Heidi13]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:10 AM, ldubs said:

 

It is $5.26 plus the tip credit to achieve NJ's minimum wage.  If the base hourly + tip credit is less than the NJ minimum, the employer must pay out the difference.  In other words, they make at least NJ's minimum wage.    

 

Therefore, when providing the waiter/waitress a tip, you are really donating money to the business owner, as they deduct the tip from the employee's wage. Wow!