If Royal Requires A Covid-19 Vaccine Before Cruising Will You Get It???

[smokeybandit]

Deaths from covid are very much over counted. Not that some actual covid deaths (ie, people who would still be alive if they hadn't contracted covid) aren't missed, but as long as we're deeming someone a covid death using the very loose definition (died for any reason within 30 or 60 days of testing positive or not testing positive yet having covid symptoms) we're definitely over counting.

[yogimax]

35 minutes ago, Wine-O said:

I don't trust Gov't.  🍷

That says it all.

[yogimax]

36 minutes ago, Ozark_Kid said:

 

Please show me if I am wrong but the 48,000 suicide number is from 2018 not 2020 posted by CDC.  What you left out is that there was also 1.4 million attempted suicides.  Why did you chose to leave that out?

I also left out the total number of COVID cases.

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by yogimax

[Coralc]

2 hours ago, ace2542 said:

One of the big conspiracy theories being banded about here with this if they are attempting to put everyone's DNA on the national database. If there is even a grain of truth to that then do you not think if they can they will get  blood sample from antibody testing and get your DNA that way.

 

Lots of people are putting their DNA in national databases and paying to do so. All the people that are submitting their DNA samples for ancestry tracing are in databases. Quite a few crimes have been solved (including the Golden State Killer) and criminals apprehended because of ancestry databases. Not because the criminals submitted their DNA, but their relatives did. 

[Wine-O]

26 minutes ago, yogimax said:

That says it all.

I'm sure you have full faith and confidence in your NY State representatives?  If that's the case, that sure says it all.  😉 🍷

[MaddyandMax]

1 hour ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

 

I would not worry that much.  If kids can sail without being vaccinated by RC or CDC rulings etc, and everyone else has to be, then others can determine if they want to cruise or not.

 

In reality anything we do on a daily basis could impact people's health, let alone unvaccinated children going on a cruise ship.  That really is the smallest on concerns when looking at the world at this moment in time. 

 

Thanks! Honestly I'm more worried about our border not opening up when cruising resumes (I'm a fellow Canadian - Hamilton).  My mother got her first dose last week, along with my grandmother so hopefully we are slowly making progress on that front.  My family has a cruise booked for August but I'm on the fence if that will even sail at this point.  The next few months will be interesting.

 

As I work in law this whole scenario interests me.  Technically a private company can do whatever they want and if they want only vaccinated people that's their choice.  It'll be interesting to see what happens if it's decided after the testing that children under 16 should not be vaccinated how they will deal with that.  I would think families with children are quite a large portion of their business.  I look forward to see how companies, the CDC and employers deal with these scenarios in the next year - (strictly from a legal point of view of course).

 

I would never want my children to put anyone's health in jeopardy if it's decided they cant be vaccinated but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess if that's the case Royal is going to want covid tests for any children.  Considering my children are at home and never get to leave the house anymore they, and their horrible germs, are not putting anyone's health at risk. LOL

[Ozark_Kid]

1 hour ago, yogimax said:

I do.  Over 400,000 have now died from COVID.  Suicide, as horrendous as it is, totaled 48,000.

 

So is it then your argument that younger lives are significantly more valuable than older lives?

 

24 minutes ago, yogimax said:

I also left out the total number of COVID cases.

 

Yes you did.  Using the CDC #s from 2018 like you did..... 48,000 suicides 0 covid cases or deaths in 2018 according to the 2018 covid records you quoted.   
 

Did you leave off the 1.4 million attempted suicides because your argument s that older lives are significantly more valuable than younger lives?   Do you believe only young people commit suicide?

[Mapleleafforever]

40 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Deaths from covid are very much over counted. Not that some actual covid deaths (ie, people who would still be alive if they hadn't contracted covid) aren't missed, but as long as we're deeming someone a covid death using the very loose definition (died for any reason within 30 or 60 days of testing positive or not testing positive yet having covid symptoms) we're definitely over counting.

My entire Province is currently under an official Stay at Home order. We couldn't see any family during Christmas. Businesses are going under, so many people unemployed now. Here is a quote from our Toronto public health.

 

"This means that individuals who have died with COVID-19, but not necessarily as a result of COVID-19, are all included in the case counts for COVID-19 deaths in Toronto.”

Edited January 19, 2021 by Mapleleafforever

[BND]

1 hour ago, LB_NJ said:

The death toll from COVID is probably significantly UNDERCOUNTED.  It may be a year or 2 until we know the real numbers.  It will probably be an estimate at that point.  Based on analysis of overall deaths.

I don't think it's undercounted.  Why do they state it as number of people who died "with" Covid as opposed to "from"? Because they are putting everyone who tested positive and died in that column even though a lot of them had other terminal illnesses and co -morbidities.  I think the final numbers will be lower of people who actually died "from" Covid.  My FIL (died in 2017) had an aortic aneurysm that couldn't be surgically repaired as he'd had a stent put in and they couldn't remove it and fix it because of the scar tissue.  The aneurysm didn't directly kill him, but the infection he had due to it couldn't be beaten without removing the stent which couldn't be done.   His death certificate didn't list the aneurysm although it really in the end was the cause because it caused the infection that couldn't be cured.  Point is, don't think we have the exact numbers by a long shot as they need to be filtered and analyzed properly.

Edited January 19, 2021 by BND

[Mapleleafforever]

5 minutes ago, MaddyandMax said:

 

1 hour ago, LB_NJ said:

The death toll from COVID is probably significantly UNDERCOUNTED.  It may be a year or 2 until we know the real numbers.  It will probably be an estimate at that point.  Based on analysis of overall deaths.

 

 

 

 

I believe the opposite is true. Actually, where I live it's a fact that the opposite is true. Direct quote from our public health unit.

 

"This means that individuals who have died with COVID-19, but not necessarily as a result of COVID-19, are all included in the case counts for COVID-19 deaths in Toronto.”

 

A person could die in a car accident and if they test positive they'll be counted in the Covid-19 death count. 

 

[donaldsc]

19 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

Children can and are asymptomatic carriers.  If they are not allowed to or their parents will not let them get vaccinated, they should not be allowed to cruise.  Your rights to do things stop when they might impact my health.

 

DON

bb

[xpcdoojk]

1 hour ago, yogimax said:

I do.  Over 400,000 have now died from COVID.  Suicide, as horrendous as it is, totaled 48,000.

 

So is it then your argument that younger lives are significantly more valuable than older lives?

Most insurance companies do.

 

When you are talking about life years lost. Suicides are taking way more.  

 

That said, we can’t quantify the cost to society of increased poverty, children raised in homes split due to economic impacts.  ETC....   Plus, how many of the 400K would have died even if Covid didn’t exist.  I am just guessing but I bet a lot.  

 

You just have to win, because you are so invested in locking down.  It doesn’t change the other societal impacts.  It doesn’t make them go away.  

 

The lock downs are causing real proveable harm.  Pretending that they don’t is simply being closed minded.  

 

 

[exm]

15 minutes ago, MaddyandMax said:

 

Thanks! Honestly I'm more worried about our border not opening up when cruising resumes (I'm a fellow Canadian - Hamilton).  My mother got her first dose last week, along with my grandmother so hopefully we are slowly making progress on that front.  My family has a cruise booked for August but I'm on the fence if that will even sail at this point.  The next few months will be interesting.

 

As I work in law this whole scenario interests me.  Technically a private company can do whatever they want and if they want only vaccinated people that's their choice.  It'll be interesting to see what happens if it's decided after the testing that children under 16 should not be vaccinated how they will deal with that.  I would think families with children are quite a large portion of their business.  I look forward to see how companies, the CDC and employers deal with these scenarios in the next year - (strictly from a legal point of view of course).

 

I would never want my children to put anyone's health in jeopardy if it's decided they cant be vaccinated but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess if that's the case Royal is going to want covid tests for any children.  Considering my children are at home and never get to leave the house anymore they, and their horrible germs, are not putting anyone's health at risk. LOL

 

Think about it: if they make vaccinations mandatory for the crew and anyone over 16, and children under 16 will be tested upon boarding what's the danger? That one child transmits it to another child? Since adults are all vaccinated that can be mitigated by another mandatory test while deboarding. Children under 16 themselves really aren't impacted from a health perspective maybe with a few exceptions.

[John&LaLa]

1 hour ago, Ozark_Kid said:

 

Please show me if I am wrong but the 48,000 suicide number is from 2018 not 2020 posted by CDC.  What you left out is that there was also 1.4 million attempted suicides.  Why did you chose to leave that out?

 

Fits the dialogue better

[jean87510]

Im actually curious as to how officers on board cruise ships with their families will handle covid vaccines IF REQUIRED.  On almost every cruise I have seen an officer with spouse and child.  

[exm]

5 minutes ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

 

So not all people who die of COVID get a positive test.  And some people who die of COVID no longer have a positive test when they start treatment.

 

So people are just dying of lonliness or something?  That's why all the experts are pretty sure COVID is UNDERCOUNTED.  And really only people who ignore data and believe what they want to believe think it's overcounted. 

 

If you die from a shark attack, and you are COVID-positive, the hospital will report you as a COVID death (true story, heard from multiple friends that work in hospitals). The reason is simple: federal funding. Hospitals get money for any COVID patient they are treating dead or alive. So I believe the number is overcounted.

[UnorigionalName]

2 minutes ago, exm said:

 

If you die from a shark attack, and you are COVID-positive, the hospital will report you as a COVID death (true story, heard from multiple friends that work in hospitals). The reason is simple: federal funding. Hospitals get money for any COVID patient they are treating dead or alive. So I believe the number is overcounted.

 

Why does your belief count more than data?  It's your belief because you desperately want it to be true, so you don't have to be wrong.  And people take being wrong as physically painful.

 

The number of COVID positive people who died from shark attacks is less than the number of people who died at home without a COVID test.

 

ALL data points to COVID deaths being UNDERCOUNTED.  Basically, explain to me the excess deaths in 2020.  If you say the undercounted theory is wrong, how do you explain the data away?

 

No matter how much your psyche desires yourself to be correct, you can't desire away the data.  Take a good introspection, look at the data even if it is physically painful, and explain it to me.

[yogimax]

28 minutes ago, exm said:

 

If you die from a shark attack, and you are COVID-positive, the hospital will report you as a COVID death (true story, heard from multiple friends that work in hospitals). The reason is simple: federal funding. Hospitals get money for any COVID patient they are treating dead or alive. So I believe the number is overcounted.

Your friends were simply quoting Alex Jones, a far right conspiracy theorist. 

 

Here's the truth...

 

"Covid-19 is only listed on the death certificate in the United States if the disease played a role in that person dying, so deaths by misadventure such as shark attacks and sky-diving falls would certainly not be included.

Experts say that, if anything, Covid-19 deaths have been under-reported, because of a lack of testing in the community, and deaths at home which aren't counted."

Edited January 19, 2021 by yogimax

[exm]

1 minute ago, yogimax said:

Your friends were simply quoting Alex Jones, a far right conspiracy theorist. 

 

"Covid-19 is only listed on the death certificate in the United States if the disease played a role in that person dying, so deaths by misadventure such as shark attacks and sky-diving falls would certainly not be included.

Experts say that, if anything, Covid-19 deaths have been under-reported, because of a lack of testing in the community, and deaths at home which aren't counted."

 

It's an extreme example that was listed, but it's an absolute fact. Sorry if you disagree and that's fine. Anyway, hopefully we can get back on track with this discussion.

[Mapleleafforever]

16 minutes ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

 

So not all people who die of COVID get a positive test.  And some people who die of COVID no longer have a positive test when they start treatment.

 

If you look at excess deaths for 2020, you will see it is more than the number of reported COVID deaths.  So the assumption is that the vast majority of excess deaths is due to COVID, and even then, the fact that hospitals are full and stroke and heart attack patients can't get timely care, why doesn't that count as COVID related?

 

So you look at excess deaths, and nothing else can really explain it.  Trauma is down. Flu is at a historic low.

 

So people are just dying of lonliness or something?  That's why all the experts are pretty sure COVID is UNDERCOUNTED.  And really only people who ignore data and believe what they want to believe think it's overcounted. 

The common cold and the flu have all now been completely cured aparently!!!  lol Everything is Covid. How many people have had it but don't even know it because they didn't have symptoms or had mild symptoms and didn't get tested? We may never know the real true numbers. 

 

I can't wait for Covid to be over........a real famous guy on tv promised that we wouldn't hear about Covid after November 3 but turns out that was just another of a series of big lies. 

[Dizzney9915]

3 minutes ago, exm said:

 

It's an extreme example that was listed, but it's an absolute fact. Sorry if you disagree and that's fine. Anyway, hopefully we can get back on track with this discussion.

Alex Jones and the word “fact” do not belong in the same sentence. 

[UnorigionalName]

1 minute ago, Mapleleafforever said:

The common cold and the flu have all now been completely cured aparently!!!  lol Everything is Covid. How many people have had it but don't even know it because they didn't have symptoms or had mild symptoms and didn't get tested? We may never know the real true numbers. 

 

I can't wait for Covid to be over........a real famous guy on tv promised that we wouldn't hear about Covid after November 3 but turns out that was just another of a series of big lies. 

 

Yeah, cold and flu is at historic lows this year because of the shutdowns and social distancing.  And we do know for the flu because the CDC has routine surveillance in place, and the data shows this might end up as the lightest flu season on record.

 

It shows that it does work.  The COVID cases would have been crazy without social distancing and shutdowns. 

 

Australia, which as you may note is in the southern hemisphere, has already gone through its whole 2020 flu season, with a 90%+ reduction in flu cases.  The US is in the early flu season still, and it looks like it's going to be low, but not as low as Australia, which actually had an effective shutdown.

 

So if you look at the data from Italy, where like it was early on in the pandemic and whole villages got decimated by COVID, the asymptomatic rate is somewhere around 40-60%.  They did serum testing on whole villages, some had as high as 70% positivity, and that was the asymptomatic rate, so basically not high.

[BND]

I know a nurse who works in an urgent care facility that is a Covid testing site also.  They get a lot of people who test positive with either no symptoms or very mild ones and the only reason they usually get tested is they either were exposed to someone or they are having a medical procedure that requires it.  The estimates are that the actual infections are up to 10X the number of positive tests.  Flu numbers are almost non-existent this year.

 

My favorite thing I've seen on tv in the last couple of weeks was on Daily Blast Live.  The consultant Dr has repeatedly said if people wear masks and wash hands we'll bring down the Covid numbers and that if people would just do that numbers would drop.  On one of the shows she said that, she was also asked about why the flu rates were so low, almost non-existent this year and get this, she said it's because people are wearing masks and washing their hands.  Huh?  Is it any wonder so many don't trust what they hear?

[HBE4]

1 hour ago, xpcdoojk said:

Plus, how many of the 400K would have died even if Covid didn’t exist.  I am just guessing but I bet a lot.  

 

I just love the old "they were going to die anyways" argument. 

 

The same can be said of someone that dies of a heroin overdose. The difference is that person choose to shoot up heroin knowing the risk. Nobody chooses to die of/with Covid. 

[UnorigionalName]

13 minutes ago, BND said:

My favorite thing I've seen on tv in the last couple of weeks was on Daily Blast Live.  The consultant Dr has repeatedly said if people wear masks and wash hands we'll bring down the Covid numbers and that if people would just do that numbers would drop.  On one of the shows she said that, she was also asked about why the flu rates were so low, almost non-existent this year and get this, she said it's because people are wearing masks and washing their hands.  Huh?  Is it any wonder so many don't trust what they hear?

 

????

 

I've seen a lot of covid deniers repeat this line and I don't understand it.

 

The R0 for flu is like 1.5.  The R0 for COVID is probably like >6.

 

So some people are wearing masks and social distancing.  But not enough.  So lets say enough are wearing masks and social distancing to halve the rate of infections.

 

So the R0 for flu will become 0.75, so below one, so it basically doesn't propagate, where COVID will still be at like 3, where it will still explode. 

 

So the fact that there is no flu this year shows that masks and social distancing work.  Science works.

 

It is only at the rate of slowing down COVID, because COVID IS A TON MORE CONTAGIOUS THAN THE FLU.

 

This is not some "i-gotcha" point.  This is poor understanding of math and science.