The future of Edge-class?

[richsea]

I realize that Cruise Critic member reviews may not be a complete picture, but in comparing Edge reviews to Equinox there is a definite difference in good or bad reviews.

Throwing out 3 star reviews as just ok, Edge has 320 reviews with 159 4 or 5 stars, & 68 with 1 or 2 stars.

Equinox has 2009 reviews with 1509 with 4 or 5 stars, & 82 with 1 or 2 stars. 

To me, that is very revealing.

Edited April 12, 2019 by richsea

[Oville]

1 hour ago, vtcruising said:

I just started packing....see you soon 😉

Sadlly, we’lll be packing up in a couple of  days.

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Oville

[AL3XCruise]

1 hour ago, Stateroom_Sailor said:

Easily refuted with better data, which I assume you have?

 

I need to agree with @Oville.  Not having better data doesn't make bad data valid.  Certainly the number of negative reviews raise questions, but its hard to draw any conclusions that would be useful in planning business decisions.

 

Obviously X has a lot more data than any of us, and they feel that another Edge class ship makes sense.  It could have more to do with adding capacity on a specific schedule than any grand endorsement of the Edge, and it is possible the ship will be heavily modified.  Building another Edge is faster and cheaper than an all-new design, and probably easier than trying to build a new S-class based ship. 

 

The point is, X sees another Edge class as the best move ROI-wise.  That doesn't mean everyone will like it, just that it will probably make money!

 

[AL3XCruise]

19 minutes ago, richsea said:

I realize that Cruise Critic member reviews may not be a complete picture, but in comparing Edge reviews to Equinox there is a definite difference in good or bad reviews.

Throwing out 3 star reviews as just ok, Edge has 320 reviews with 159 4 or 5 stars, & 68 with 1 or 2 stars.

Equinox has 2009 reviews with 1509 with 4 or 5 stars, & 82 with 1 or 2 stars

 

Its true that it shows issues impacting CC reviewers during the initial months of service.  And to be fair, those issues may be very important to some people.  To be honest, I'm not looking to go on the Edge anytime soon.  But how many of these issues are due to irreparable flaws in the ship?

 

Early reviews were very negative, the average has risen since.  Eden and IVs are still divisive, but part of the problem may be how X pitched them and failed to set expectations of current cruisers.  It is really hard to figure out the long-term picture across all the target markets given this.

 

As long as X feels they can charge enough cash to get the return they want, they will build the ship.  And they have a lot better information than we do.

[Oville]

2 hours ago, Stateroom_Sailor said:

 

Easily refuted with better data, which I assume you have?

 

Let's say I posted an inaccurate weather forecast.  Fine, just post the numbers from a credible site, or a screenshot.  If we can't do that, then all we're doing is expressing our feelings, which won't fill up 5+ ships.

321 reviews vs 40,000 plus passengers that have cruised Edge.  The math major in me says meaningless.

[Silkroad]

36 minutes ago, richsea said:

I realize that Cruise Critic member reviews may not be a complete picture, but in comparing Edge reviews to Equinox there is a definite difference in good or bad reviews.

Throwing out 3 star reviews as just ok, Edge has 320 reviews with 159 4 or 5 stars, & 68 with 1 or 2 stars.

Equinox has 2009 reviews with 1509 with 4 or 5 stars, & 82 with 1 or 2 stars. 

To me, that is very revealing.

This is not a fair comparison, and 320 reviews is not a large enough sample. Equinox is not the first ship of her class, and Edge hasn’t even been sailing for six months. I’d compare the first year of Solstice to the first year of Edge.

[richsea]

1 minute ago, Silkroad said:

This is not a fair comparison, and 320 reviews is not a large enough sample. Equinox is not the first ship of her class, and Edge hasn’t even been sailing for six months. I’d compare the first year of Solstice to the first year of Edge.

Fair point. I just peeked at the oldest Solsice reviews from late 2008, early 2009, & without counting all the reviews, but just perusing them, it’s pretty obvious that the overwhelming majority are 4-5 star reviews. 

I recall that when S class came out, I recall when M class debuted, the biggest complaint was that they were too big, compared to C class, & H class. Seems silly now. Other than that, most here loved them. Definitely cannot say that about Edge. 

[Stateroom_Sailor]

3 hours ago, Oville said:

321 reviews vs 40,000 plus passengers that have cruised Edge.  The math major in me says meaningless.

 

321/40,000 = meaningless

X/40,000 = meaningful

 

You wanted references from me, that's the best I've got.  As a math major, I look forward to seeing your magic working out the #'s.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Stateroom_Sailor

[Stateroom_Sailor]

4 hours ago, AL3XCruise said:

 

I need to agree with @Oville.  Not having better data doesn't make bad data valid.  Certainly the number of negative reviews raise questions, but its hard to draw any conclusions that would be useful in planning business decisions.

 

Obviously X has a lot more data than any of us, and they feel that another Edge class ship makes sense.  It could have more to do with adding capacity on a specific schedule than any grand endorsement of the Edge, and it is possible the ship will be heavily modified.  Building another Edge is faster and cheaper than an all-new design, and probably easier than trying to build a new S-class based ship. 

 

The point is, X sees another Edge class as the best move ROI-wise.  That doesn't mean everyone will like it, just that it will probably make money!

 

 

I get where you are coming from, and even my 1/3 percentage is a figure of speech.  I can only go guess off testimonials, reviews, hype, and how quickly each Edge cruise is selling out.  Even the people who have sailed Edge could be inaccurate, as some are apprehensive over price or product.  You can see that the reviews are improving, which I believe is a partial result of self-filtering. 

 

X could build more S-Class, though it would be seen backpedaling from Edge.  The controversial Quantum of the Seas led to increased focus on Oasis Class, and undoing concepts such as Dynamic Dining, which Oasis was drydocked for.

 

I don't automatically trust that any business has run the numbers with Expansion.  It was one of Circuit City's major mistakes, trying to compete with Best Buy.  Just look at all of the Subways that are closing.

[TeeRick]

10 hours ago, Oville said:

321 reviews vs 40,000 plus passengers that have cruised Edge.  The math major in me says meaningless.

Yes and if 1/3 are quote "bad reviews" then 107 of 40,000 have spoken to have a neutral to negative opinion of Edge.  The CC reviews are a very small snapshot of readers and contributors only.  Not the majority of cruisers by any means.  I believe the only poll that counts to Celebrity is from the actual customer feedback that they ask for post-cruise.  Let's guess that half the customers respond (20,000). That might be a lot more relevant data to Celebrity than the 321 on CC.  I would agree that if 1/3 of the 40,000 (or of the 20,000) passengers are negative then Celebrity would have a real issue.  Also the bottom line: is the shipping selling cabins?  For the most part certainly seems to be the case.  Some here look at marketing and perks advertised for Edge (like every other ship by the way) and are convinced Edge is failing.  IMO that is not really the case with Apex and 3 more Edge-class ships on order.  The ship will sell even better if the prices come down to match the competition.  Personally I will not sail Edge again (or Apex) until prices are better.  And it moves away from the 7-day Caribbean itineraries- unexciting to me anyway.  My next two cruises are booked on S-Class and are not in the Caribbean.  But not because I dis-liked Edge.  

Edited April 12, 2019 by TeeRick
typo

[tfred]

the numbers that really matter are if they are getting new, here to fore, non-cruisers on board at higher prices.  X really doesn't want to trade market share with other cruise lines with pax looking for a 'deal".  The "deal" people can go somewhere else - maybe RCCL

 

Are the amount of existing X pax leaving being replaced by traditional, land based resort vacationers that see the ship a a reasonable value?  Those folks come from Las Vegas, Scottsdale, etc resorts that are used to spending big money.  Vegas isn't cheap anymore - hotels and food.   

 

There will probably be some adjustment on price, but don't expect pre Edge pricing to come back.  They will just raise the onboard value proposition with drink packages, internet etc.

[Jeremiah1212]

 

 

1

11 hours ago, richsea said:

I realize that Cruise Critic member reviews may not be a complete picture, but in comparing Edge reviews to Equinox there is a definite difference in good or bad reviews.

Throwing out 3 star reviews as just ok, Edge has 320 reviews with 159 4 or 5 stars, & 68 with 1 or 2 stars.

Equinox has 2009 reviews with 1509 with 4 or 5 stars, & 82 with 1 or 2 stars. 

To me, that is very revealing.

 

The ship has been sailing not even 5 months. The early adopters aren't indicative of the average passenger. You've got people here who have been on tons and tons of cruises on the exact same ship(s). They're highly critical of even the most minor changes because whatever the item at hand may be, it's slightly different than their previous 40 cruises. Now they are upset with an axe to grind. They were excited about a new and innovative ship, but only as long as it's mostly similar to the past ships they have been on. Most passengers don't get out the tape measure, take their own cabin temperature measurements and so on. While I enjoy most of the information shared here, you have to admit some of the reviews and opinions are a bit extreme.  

[hcat]

Until I read  recent threads on the new pricing plans, I did not realize how many cruisers "crunch the numbers"  for every possible  booking option.  Many say they are  looking for  lowest fare, few or no perks included and indicate they won't spend much more on board  or for excursions. I guess they are the "deal people"  referred to by "tfred" .   I do not think X makes very much extra from these guests who just want a room, food , pool, Cap Club perks ,  and entertainment . Oviously the base price must increase over time.

 

We are not suite level cruisers(those who pay top dollar), but we  look for 2 perks, AQ class or balcony.  We book all our  excursions through X,  and spend  extra for the spa and Speciaty dining.  We pick by ship, itin and dates that fit our travel schedule. We are comfortable with our approach .

 

Prices have gone up but  we feel X is still a good fit for us, and do not have any urge to go elsewhere unless we want to visit Cuba,..presently not an X  option.

We will check out S class post renovation, but will probably continue with Edge Class into the future.  The IV was not a big a turn off for us and we liked the ship.

Edited April 12, 2019 by hcat

[Lastdance]

Well, I am still waiting to experience her for myself.  After that, I will have my decision, but for now, S class is my favorite.  IMHO, stats are just stats, but certainly do share important information; however, what I like is my gold plan.  I have never been one to just follow the crowd, unless the crowd is going my way too!  My biggest negative is high prices for the value on receives...

Edited April 12, 2019 by Lastdance

[Oville]

The pricing is keeping us from booking another Edge cruise though we did book an Apex b2b.  Yesterday we got a email from Celebrity for Florida residents rates.  For $6,000+ per person we can get a Sky Suite for next week’s sailing, what a deal👎.

[villauk]

16 hours ago, Texed said:

 

The transatlantic.  😊

 

 

Have a a fabulous time, Ed. You just can’t keep away from us .

[vtcruising]

18 hours ago, Texed said:

 

I have.  17 days.  🤠  

I found this - they must be preparing the Edge for your arrival: 🙂

 

 

[Silkroad]

15 hours ago, richsea said:

Fair point. I just peeked at the oldest Solsice reviews from late 2008, early 2009, & without counting all the reviews, but just perusing them, it’s pretty obvious that the overwhelming majority are 4-5 star reviews. 

I recall that when S class came out, I recall when M class debuted, the biggest complaint was that they were too big, compared to C class, & H class. Seems silly now. Other than that, most here loved them. Definitely cannot say that about Edge. 

OK. I’d say this is a better comparison, but I still don’t agree that Edge is a failure. Even some who disliked the IVs said they loved Edge, but they’d not book another IV. Many complaints were about things (like the Edenists, the music volume, or Trivia) that X has already changed. More people complain about prices than anything else, but I believe Edge fares will decrease once Apex is launched.

 

I too recall when Solstice was launched, and I remember endless moaning (on the X forum & in reviews) about differences between M class and Solstice. One common complaint was about the lack of a third bank of elevators, but people adapted. Another frequent complaint was about the storage in the Veranda, Concierge, and Aqua cabins, especially the over bed storage. I still saw storage complaints right up to the moment the Edge cabin plans were released. Overnight, people began complaining about the loss of the over bed storage!

 

My point is that cruise lines change. If we think we’re still getting fair value for our holiday money (by whatever criteria we, as individuals, use) we adapt. I took my first cruise in 2006, on Millie, so I can only compare  M-class and S-class. I see pros/cons about both classes. Later this month, I’ll board Edge, so I’ll be able to assess her pros/cons for myself. Regardless, we’ll have a holiday from work, and have fun with our friends😊

Edited April 12, 2019 by Silkroad

[Texed]

2 hours ago, villauk said:

Have a a fabulous time, Ed. You just can’t keep away from us .

 

Well, I have to admit, I have met some great folks from the U.K.

🙂

[Texed]

1 hour ago, vtcruising said:

I found this - they must be preparing the Edge for your arrival: 🙂

 

 

Beautiful!  🤣

[richsea]

17 hours ago, Silkroad said:

OK. I’d say this is a better comparison, but I still don’t agree that Edge is a failure. Even some who disliked the IVs said they loved Edge, but they’d not book another IV. Many complaints were about things (like the Edenists, the music volume, or Trivia) that X has already changed. More people complain about prices than anything else, but I believe Edge fares will decrease once Apex is launched.

 

I too recall when Solstice was launched, and I remember endless moaning (on the X forum & in reviews) about differences between M class and Solstice. One common complaint was about the lack of a third bank of elevators, but people adapted. Another frequent complaint was about the storage in the Veranda, Concierge, and Aqua cabins, especially the over bed storage. I still saw storage complaints right up to the moment the Edge cabin plans were released. Overnight, people began complaining about the loss of the over bed storage!

 

My point is that cruise lines change. If we think we’re still getting fair value for our holiday money (by whatever criteria we, as individuals, use) we adapt. I took my first cruise in 2006, on Millie, so I can only compare  M-class and S-class. I see pros/cons about both classes. Later this month, I’ll board Edge, so I’ll be able to assess her pros/cons for myself. Regardless, we’ll have a holiday from work, and have fun with our friends😊

I have never said that Edge is a failure. However, I have no desire to book an IV room, particulary at outrageous prices. I am just not interested in a glorified oceanview room, & there are tons of alternative ships out there.

IMO, it is very telling that the initial scores in reviews for Edge are substantially lower than those for Solstice in roughly the same timeframe. Of course people are free to interpret those scores however they want to prove their point, as am I.

 

Who knows, maybe I’ll win the lottery and be willing to spend the bucks for a suite with a real balcony!

[ipeeinthepool]

28 minutes ago, richsea said:

I have never said that Edge is a failure. However, I have no desire to book an IV room, particulary at outrageous prices. I am just not interested in a glorified oceanview room, & there are tons of alternative ships out there.

IMO, it is very telling that the initial scores in reviews for Edge are substantially lower than those for Solstice in roughly the same timeframe. Of course people are free to interpret those scores however they want to prove their point, as am I.

 

Who knows, maybe I’ll win the lottery and be willing to spend the bucks for a suite with a real balcony!

 

Is the Edge a failure?  I guess that depends of the criteria used to evaluate the Edge.  From my perspective there are many features that not only don't appeal to me but make the experience less enjoyable.  From that perspective the Edge was a miss for me.  Specifically the IV are nothing more than a glorified ocean view room and the IV balcony area was too small with less comfortable furniture.  The elimination of the Sky View lounge and any forward facing space is a definite miss.  The two level track had too many congested areas and turns.  The two level track eliminated a large deck deck on one side if the pool deck and eliminated a lot of shade around the pool. Although it doesn't really affect my enjoyment, the Magic Carpet is just ill-concieved and is too exposed to the wind and weather too be enjoyable.  If that is supposed to be a hallmark feature of the ship, it was also a miss for me.  For me the Edge is just a shiny new object and I'm not attracted to it.

 

Others can disagree and perhaps even like some of these features.  But for me and apparently many others the new features just don't resonate for us and we won't pay the premium prices again.

 

For me the difference is that when the S class ships were new, everything just felt good to me, for the Edge many things just feel ill-concieved .

 

For Celebrity, I guess the definition of failure will be the financial considerations.  If the Edge can't command premium prices for several years, I think they will call it a failure.

[AL3XCruise]

On 4/12/2019 at 3:17 AM, Stateroom_Sailor said:

X could build more S-Class, though it would be seen backpedaling from Edge.  The controversial Quantum of the Seas led to increased focus on Oasis Class, and undoing concepts such as Dynamic Dining, which Oasis was drydocked for.

 

I don't know a ton about the supply chain for ship construction, but I'd guess there would be some costs associated with sourcing or replacing some older components.  X has also touted efficiency improvements on the Edge which would be at least partially lost by going backwards.  And of course, it would be horribly embarrassing given how Edge has been positioned at the core of X's future.  An Edge+ type ship that eliminates or modifies some of the controversial efforts seems far more likely and is a common strategy.

 

On 4/12/2019 at 3:17 AM, Stateroom_Sailor said:

I don't automatically trust that any business has run the numbers with Expansion.  It was one of Circuit City's major mistakes, trying to compete with Best Buy.  Just look at all of the Subways that are closing.

 

I agree there are tons of examples of strategic mistakes.  Some were due to arrogance and hubris, others factors that were totally unpredictable.  With regard to X, I think over-expansion in general is a bigger threat than reliance on Edge class.  Your building billion dollar assets with multi-year lead times assuming the market is going to support them for the next two decades or more.

 

6 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

For Celebrity, I guess the definition of failure will be the financial considerations.  If the Edge can't command premium prices for several years, I think they will call it a failure.

 

I agree it ultimately comes down to ROI.  I imagine the key indicator would be how does it compare to a theoretical new S-class ship, both in terms of increased revenues (both on fares and onboard sales) and reduced expenses.  In addition, X seems to be using Edge as a brand building tool.  If that works, it certainly adds some intangible value to the Edge.  

 

6 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

Others can disagree and perhaps even like some of these features.  But for me and apparently many others the new features just don't resonate for us and we won't pay the premium prices again.

I haven't been on the Edge, and I'm not in a hurry to go.  At the right price, sure, but cheaper options with better itineraries are still using very nice ships.  But I'm happy that some enjoy it; I just won't be joining them in the immediate future.

[cgolf1]

We never did an official review for the Edge, just posted a day by day of our trip on the forum, so I guess the reviews are missing out on one more positive review. 

 

Our next two cruises will will determine if we stick to RCCL, E class, or try another line or another Celebrity ship (from the reviews and comments on here treating this like another line), time will tell. 

[Sandy1975]

46 minutes ago, cgolf1 said:

We never did an official review for the Edge, just posted a day by day of our trip on the forum, so I guess the reviews are missing out on one more positive review. 

 

Our next two cruises will will determine if we stick to RCCL, E class, or try another line or another Celebrity ship (from the reviews and comments on here treating this like another line), time will tell. 

I never do reviews but I felt compelled to do one for Edge because I want others to know that Edge is working and appealing to some people. I would agree that current prices are outrageous and got on the way of booking a new cruise. However,  it is not just pricing for Edge class but also for S class and lack of interesting Caribbean ports. So now that I am Elite, I did a status match on MSC and I am Gold (used to match to Black till mid of last year) and I am considering a balcony with Yatch class level. Itineraries are about the same as X but the excitement comes from trying the Yatch Club experience, which is running about $1K to $2K lower than X suite class.