Can we ever truly trust the cruise lines?

[ldubs]

8 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Sadly, a lot of people will do a lot of unsavory things if they believe their continued employment and income is st stake.  Why would you expect more of a ship’s captain than of his superiors in the company?

 

I would expect more of the captain simply because I thought there was an ethical standard relating to safety of passengers.  Clearly, and as you say sadly,  there is a dilemma about the priority.   

[K32682]

9 hours ago, ldubs said:

I would expect more of the captain simply because I thought there was an ethical standard relating to safety of passengers.  Clearly, and as you say sadly,  there is a dilemma about the priority.   

 

The Costa Concordia and Oceanos suggest high expectations about the ethical standards of captains are misplaced.  

[navybankerteacher]

10 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I would expect more of the captain simply because I thought there was an ethical standard relating to safety of passengers.  Clearly, and as you say sadly,  there is a dilemma about the priority.   

I agree that there is an implied obligation placed upon ship captains to show care for their passengers - the tradition (not always observed - see Costa Concordia) of the captain being the last to abandon a sinking ship - even to the point of going down with it -has a fond place in travelers hearts —— but in real life, when push comes to shove, self-interest frequently supersedes “honorable” behavior.

[c-boy]

13 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Under the current circumstances, I'm not sure that it is even possible for a cruise line to keep passengers safe, no matter how much money they throw at the problem.   They might, if honest, be able to prevent spread off the ship.   What really bothers me most about the Hurtigruten incident is that the ship's captain was involved.  

it has become apparent that human behavior cannot be curbed ... https://cruiseradio.net/kicked-off-cruise-line-boots-guests-for-ignoring-new-protocols/

[nosapphire]

13 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Sadly, a lot of people will do a lot of unsavory things if they believe their continued employment and income is st stake.  Why would you expect more of a ship’s captain than of his superiors in the company?

My understanding is that when the ship is at sea (outside of territorial waters), the Captain of that ship is wholly in charge and can legally override any demands made by any other authority.

https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/who-s-really-in-charge-of-the-ship-1

Of course, being the final word and USING that final word when shore office are giving strong indications (such as, we can employ other captains, you know,) may be two different things.

It is certainly not a job that I would enjoy, as there are too many other parties trying to get their wants put first.

[nosapphire]

1 minute ago, c-boy said:

it has become apparent that human behavior cannot be curbed ... https://cruiseradio.net/kicked-off-cruise-line-boots-guests-for-ignoring-new-protocols/

 

I say, Hurrah for MSC.

[navybankerteacher]

23 minutes ago, c-boy said:

it has become apparent that human behavior cannot be curbed ... https://cruiseradio.net/kicked-off-cruise-line-boots-guests-for-ignoring-new-protocols/

Similar, on a different scale, with what the Universityof North Carolina had to do with their entire student body.

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, c-boy said:

it has become apparent that human behavior cannot be curbed ... https://cruiseradio.net/kicked-off-cruise-line-boots-guests-for-ignoring-new-protocols/

 

Sadly I am not surprised. 

 

I hope MSC is as diligent in monitoring the social distancing/mask wearing onboard.

 

[SelectSys]

3 hours ago, c-boy said:

it has become apparent that human behavior cannot be curbed ... https://cruiseradio.net/kicked-off-cruise-line-boots-guests-for-ignoring-new-protocols/

 

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Sadly I am not surprised. 

 

I hope MSC is as diligent in monitoring the social distancing/mask wearing onboard.

 

 

 

I like this story from the Harvard Business Journal which states that "You can take the person out of the Stone Age, not the Stone Age out of the person."

 

https://hbr.org/1998/07/how-hardwired-is-human-behavior

 

Sadly, we haven't evolved sufficiently from our original Savannah Plain to expect much else. 🙂

[ontheweb]

There was once a politician who said "trust but verify". Many of those who post on these boards now say "trust but villify".

[donaldsc]

Since when have we ever been able to trust cruise lines ever?

 

DON

[iancal]

9 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

Since when have we ever been able to trust cruise lines ever?

 

DON

 

Exactly.  How naive can someone be?  One would have to drink an awful lot of the kool-aid to get into that space.

Edited August 19, 2020 by iancal

[SelectSys]

12 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

 

Personally, I've never had any reason to even say that I don't trust cruise lines.  I don't see why I wouldn't.  I don't need a "trust factor" with them.  Take my money, give me a good vacation experience.  Pretty simple.

 

Excellent point.  If the vacation isn't good, you'll be unlikely to return.  It's obviously in the cruise lines interest to provide a quality vacation experience for their identified customer segments. I am reminded of the old adage - "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." 

 

12 minutes ago, iancal said:

 

Exactly.  How naive can someone be?  One would have to drink an awful lot of the kool-aid to get into that space.

 

Yep and there sure is a lot of "Kool-Aid" drinking going on these days!

[ldubs]

10 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

I agree that there is an implied obligation placed upon ship captains to show care for their passengers - the tradition (not always observed - see Costa Concordia) of the captain being the last to abandon a sinking ship - even to the point of going down with it -has a fond place in travelers hearts —— but in real life, when push comes to shove, self-interest frequently supersedes “honorable” behavior.

 

I was hoping it was more than implied.  I would still like to think these are individual as opposed to institutional problems.  But like the guy says, real life isn't always roses.  

[ldubs]

7 hours ago, c-boy said:

it has become apparent that human behavior cannot be curbed ... https://cruiseradio.net/kicked-off-cruise-line-boots-guests-for-ignoring-new-protocols/

 

I'm not in the least bit surprised some passengers pushed the rule.  I'm pleasantly surprised that they were held to account for their actions.  Never been on MSC.  Might have to look into them when we can cruise again.   

 

Thanks for sharing.  

[clo]

5 hours ago, donaldsc said:

Since when have we ever been able to trust cruise lines ever?

 

DON

It IS interesting, isn't it? That for some people they think that 'those people' care any more about them than any other business. There was someone here who works/worked for a cruise line who expressed how much they dreaded having to have dinner with passengers. And the passengers thought they were so special. Interesting. Thanks.

[sfaaa]

11 hours ago, donaldsc said:

Since when have we ever been able to trust cruise lines ever?

 

DON

If this is how you feel, please explain why you were so willing to give these untrustworthy cruise lines your credit card #, passport info, birthday, name, address and other confidential personal info. 

[K32682]

13 hours ago, sfaaa said:

If this is how you feel, please explain why you were so willing to give these untrustworthy cruise lines your credit card #, passport info, birthday, name, address and other confidential personal info. 

 

Even if people did trust the cruise line with all of the above during the pandemic the stakes are a bit higher.  One should expect a cruise line to follow established protocols and not take shortcuts with the health of passengers and crew.  The performance of the cruise lines since the beginning of the pandemic however does suggest that is an unreasonable expectation. 

[pc_load_letter]

Sorry but this post is dumb.

 

What company can anyone trust? Do you trust the companies you have in your 401k? You want the companies you invest in to make money. GM covers up deaths from their cars and their reluctance to do a recall yet I am sure dozens of people opining about the cruise lines may surely drive GM cars.

 

Sorry that's a tangent but the lines can do all they can do but passengers will be the ones taking the risk. If you feel sick when going on a cruise (and I'm not even talking about covid), those you impact are on you, not the ship. Your post should be..."Can we ever truly trust society again".

[getting older slowly]

Trust.... the OP seams to looking at after the fact....in the example

 

Do you trust cruise lines ????    well why would you trust any large company or corporation... as they in business to make money.. then you the consumer  wants it for the lowest price.....

 

You start to see..... you end up with rubbish and cut corners if one goes to far.....

 

So as the Consumer you can spend more to get a better product/service... it is up to you....

 

Do I trust the cruise line..... I do.. if I didn't a would not travel with them....  

 

If you don't trust anybody.... you wouldn't buy a new TV.... a bottle of wine of dinner out...

because you don't trust them ??     

 

The question become how much do you trust the cruise lines ???

 

1 hour ago, pc_load_letter said:

."Can we ever truly trust society again".

 

That is the question ?

[iancal]

Would I trust a cruise line to place my health and well being, prior to or  post covid, ahead of corporate profit, their image, and cruise operations?

 

Absolutely not.  
 

Would I  trust them in normal time to provide the product as advertised?  Yes, and we have many, many times.  Nor do I believe that a cruise line would knowingly cheat me in any way.

 

I do however believe that they would, and have, misrepresent the truth if it furthered their corporate objectives.

Edited August 21, 2020 by iancal

[clo]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

I do however believe that they would, and have, misrepresent the truth if it furthered their corporate objectives.

If no other time, these last months have shown that they're looking after no one but themselves. Announcing that cruising won't resume til next year but not canceling so people can get refunds on a timely basis. It's told me plenty

[navybankerteacher]

Trust??

 

Actually, it isn’t just the cruise lines —- how much do you trust the avid cruiser who is looking forward to his cruise - to acknowledge that he has been in contact with infected people, perhaps even feels some symptoms.  Will he not try to board — we know that there are many who still do not believe COVID is real,  or will party with large groups believing that being young makes him invulnerable.  Boarding a ship operated by folks who we feel perhaps cannot be trusted - along with a thousand or so other people - a substantial percentage of whom we should think carefully about — requires a fairly high amount of trust these days.  

 

And the sad fact is that we cannot really verify anything.

[clo]

45 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Trust??

 

Actually, it isn’t just the cruise lines —- how much do you trust the avid cruiser who is looking forward to his cruise - to acknowledge that he has been in contact with infected people, perhaps even feels some symptoms.  Will he not try to board — we know that there are many who still do not believe COVID is real,  or will party with large groups believing that being young makes him invulnerable.  Boarding a ship operated by folks who we feel perhaps cannot be trusted - along with a thousand or so other people - a substantial percentage of whom we should think carefully about — requires a fairly high amount of trust these days.  

 

And the sad fact is that we cannot really verify anything.

Ooh, good point, nbt. Very good.

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 8/2/2020 at 9:07 AM, K32682 said:

 

There's a difference between spin and deception.  Hurtigruten isolated 4 crew who were sick and had COVID-19. They let passengers leave the vessel to mingle in the community potentially spreading the virus.  Hurtigruten's spin now is that the crew's symptoms weren't COVID-19 symptoms when they actually were and now 36 other crew members are positive too. 

 

It is hardly an unreasonable expectation that the cruise line won't deliberately jeopardize the health of my family and friends. Hurtigruten bet the 4 crew didn't have COVID-19 and lost thereby putting at risk every single person on the ship and now every person in the community. 

 

If it were the first time it would be a rogue event but repeatedly the cruise lines during the pandemic have put dollars ahead of passenger and community safety. 

 

 

Worse than the limited COVID-19 issue, is cruise line deception on future schedules, FCCs, and prices of future cruises.  Cruise lines have mortgaged their futures to the tune of about $20Billion.  They continue to build new ships without regard to the threat from COVID-19.  They have to pay for their deception at some point by either charging hugely increased prices or drastically cutting services.  Both the lines and their passengers have come to expect maximum service and benefit, good cabins for a little money as possible.  Cruise lines have built their reputations on this premise.  Before "cruising" ocean liners were just about the only way to travel between continents and prices and services were expensive.  Today the average cruiser expects more for less.  In the future, when cruising restarts in some new format, prices will need to be much higher and services minimized to enable the lines to financially survive.  Will those who have "cruised" for fun be willing to pay the significantly higher costs to resume "cruising?"  Maybe - maybe not.  Cruising could quickly become the purview of the upper middle class and wealthy.  Problem is, of course, those people have many other options for "vacations."  The so called "lift and shift" games, FCCs, etc are just deceptions on the part of cruise lines to keep your money for the unknown future.  Its a grand Ponzi scheme from which there will be no winners.  Both the cruise lines and passengers will be losers.