Rethinking Muster Drills

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

 

If the information that passengers get from muster is practice going to their muster stations and receiving safety information; I think there is probably more than one way to do that. 

 

Obviously their are many other ways of performing this role, but the marine experts at IMO, based on many incidents and contributing factors have determined this model is the best to enhance pax safety.

 

I only have only 28 yrs in command of passenger vessels and tend to agree with them, but am always open to review other ideas. Unfortunately watching a film in the cabin is good for a refresher, but doesn't meet the objective for crew and pax training.

[sanger727]

2 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Obviously their are many other ways of performing this role, but the marine experts at IMO, based on many incidents and contributing factors have determined this model is the best to enhance pax safety.

 

I only have only 28 yrs in command of passenger vessels and tend to agree with them, but am always open to review other ideas. Unfortunately watching a film in the cabin is good for a refresher, but doesn't meet the objective for crew and pax training.

 

Fine, I think we are splitting hairs at this point. Speaking only to the musters I have gone to recently where I went to a theater, sat down, and watched a silly video. 

 

I fail to see the difference between reporting to your muster station AND also watching a safety video

and reporting to your muster station to see a safety video... 

 

Maybe the human behavior experts have found those two things are different... IDK

[jeremyosborne81]

The bare minimum goal of a muster drill is to 1) Teach passengers what to listen for in the GES. 2) Teach passengers where is and how to get to their muster station.

My opinion is that the best way to do that is just like a fire drill in elementary school, where children calmly walk down smoke free hallways after hearing the alarm bell, which they were warned about before hand.

Anybody who has worked with the general population knows how stupid and self-involved humans are, which is why a "virtual" muster drill via video or whatever will not work. A majority of people will ignore it and when a real emergency happens many more people will not be prepared than in a regular, pre-virus, time.

[ed01106]

29 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

 If there is a .01% chance that you will actually need to muster on a ship for a real emergency compared to a 5% chance of covid spreading in a muster drill 

 

Flaw in your logic, right there.  If there is a high enough prevalence of covid that there is 5% chance that an individual muster drill lasting less than a half hour will result in the spread of covid than there is a a much larger chance that during the course of 7 days the virus will spread by passing someone in the hall, at the casino, from a handrail, in an elevator, at meals, etc.  If the disease is prevalent enough to make muster drill unsafe, than ships shouldn’t be sailing.

[Heidi13]

26 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

But best practices can be suspended, and sometimes should be suspended for overarching issues. If there is a .01% chance that you will actually need to muster on a ship for a real emergency compared to a 5% chance of covid spreading in a muster drill and the ship getting quarantined and the industry getting shut down again...

 

When conducting a risk analysis, in addition to considering probability (percentage) you also must consider the scope. When analysis of the pax muster during an emergency it would show as "Red" or critical, with risk mitigation factors included in the ship's procedures. When a risk is high, personally as a Master, I would not reduce any of the mitigation factors. It is also a legal requirement of the Shipping Act, so is a mute point.

 

For virus, even if the probability was higher, hypothetically the amount of potential infections could place it in a lower category than mustering. It also has a very easy control measure - no cruises, or significantly reducing # pax.

 

If conducting comparative risk assessments for shipboard activities and virus, especially on mass market ships their are way more places on a ship that must be addressed before reducing standards at Muster Drills.

[sanger727]

Alright, I"m about done with this. I don't mean any disrespect to the professional mariners. Cruise lines are currently publicizing that they will be resuming service and there will be changes onboard to adjust for COVID, so clearly they are anticipating cruising before COVID is a non-issue. I did read that royal caribbean trade marked the name "e-muster" which tells me that they are at least considering changing the muster policy. This idea was not my invention. I suspect cruise lines are creating contingency plans and trying to figure out everything they can do at this point to resume business without getting on the wrong side of the CDC. I doubt very much that any change that would embrace "social distancing" is off the table. That's all I have to say, we will wait and see what happens. 

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

I did read that royal caribbean trade marked the name "e-muster" which tells me that they are at least considering changing the muster policy.

Regardless of what RCI has thought of doing, what they implement needs to meet IMO SOLAS standards, as interpreted by either their flag state, or their class society.  Yes, there is a mandatory requirement that all passengers be "gathered" or "mustered" in a drill before departure.

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

 

 

 

With respect to the Muster Drill, it is not an in depth emergency training exercise, primarily based on the experience level of the participants (pax). When you are developing complex and unannounced drills/training, the participants and fully trained and experienced. To maximise the training benefit, the complexity of the drill must be commensurate with the knowledge and experience of the participants. If you tried a complex and unannounced drill with new trainees, it would most likely end in chaos, with no learning gained. When conducting risk analysis, their is no benefit from conducting a pax muster at 03:00 and many believe it could be counter-productive in the event of a real emergency.

 

 

 

 Also, just as a side note, I don't actually think any cruise line should conduct a passenger muster at 0300 because no one would ever book that cruise line again. But from a training perspective FOR THE CREW it would be much more beneficial to have passengers who are afraid and confused than passengers who are bored and just going through the motions until they can get their next drink at the bar. The passengers will never be prepared for an emergency based on one muster drill outside of they know where to go (which I think we all agree is the most important purpose of a muster drill). But in an actual emergency they need a crew to take command and tell them where to go and what to do; and i've never seen that from the crew in a muster drill. I've seen alot of people bored and going through the motions. And if that's how they train, THEY will not be prepared for actual passengers in an actual emergency. That point was about crew training, not passenger training. And what I do know from my job is that the average person, and that extends to passengers, crew that are hired to clean rooms and serve drinks, and even police recruits - the average person doesn't have it in them to take command of a chaotic situation and scared people without substantial training. So I hope they are getting that.

Edited May 27, 2020 by sanger727

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

 

 Also, just as a side note, I don't actually think any cruise line should conduct a passenger muster at 0300 because no one would ever book that cruise line again. But from a training perspective FOR THE CREW it would be much more beneficial to have passengers who are afraid and confused than passengers who are bored and just going through the motions until they can get their next drink at the bar. The passengers will never be prepared for an emergency based on one muster drill outside of they know where to go (which I think we all agree is the most important purpose of a muster drill). But in an actual emergency they need a crew to take command and tell them where to go and what to do; and i've never seen that from the crew in a muster drill. I've seen alot of people bored and going through the motions. And if that's how they train, THEY will not be prepared for actual passengers in an actual emergency. That point was about crew training, not passenger training. And what I do know from my job is that the average person, and that extends to passengers, crew that are hired to clean rooms and serve drinks, and even police recruits - the average person doesn't have it in them to take command of a chaotic situation and scared people without substantial training. So I hope they are getting that.

 

Going back to drills planning pre-requisites, using passengers during unpublished drills in challenging conditions cannot guarantee their safety during a training exercise, so for liability reasons isn't going to happen.

 

However, various training is provided for the crew in handling difficult passengers, panic, injuries, etc. The degree of training depends on the Master and Senior Officers. My crews have completed numerous pax control exercises, but always without passengers. After the regulatory component of drills, we often moved into training phases, where a variety of pax control exercises were developed. Some crew were assigned various roles that could be encountered in a pax muster, with the intensity ramped up or down based on skills and experiences of the crew. The most important phase, based on crew feedback was the open discussion debriefing. As Master, at times I have left the Chief Engineer & Deck Officers to run the C&C of the fire & boundary cooling, while I attended the pax control training run by the Purser. Many great ideas from the debrief were incorporated into subsequent drills. While the crew may have been bored as stairway guides, etc. once we started the training their attention changed. 

 

So yes, at least my crews received this type of training, but out of sight of pax. 

[dmndlil]

On 5/23/2020 at 11:07 AM, d9704011 said:

I’ve never been on HAL or Carnival but I can tell you that Celebrity has their muster drills inside.  At least the six ships I’ve been on.

Our last few sailings on Carnival have all been inside muster drills.  I quite possibly may depend on which ship you are sailing on. 

[MBP&O2/O]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, one of my specialities was crisis management and exercise planning. One of the more obtuse exercises we ran was that of a 50 seat canal narrow boat becoming ‘cilled ’ in a deep lock.
It involved the police, fire, ambulance, and various other bodies / responders.
We actually ran this as a ‘live casualty’ scenario. We used ‘EMS’ staff as passengers. These were professional responders and some thought this exercise was a hoot!
Until it began!!!
The exercise was way outside the box, and proved to be a steep learning curve for all parties, but in the end it was a worthwhile exercise. Had it been for real I dread to think what would have happened.
Do things like this ever happen for real? You bet they do! That’s why exercises should be for real.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/four-disabled-people-die-in-canal-sinking-1172796.html

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, MBP&O2/O said:

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, one of my specialities was crisis management and exercise planning. One of the more obtuse exercises we ran was that of a 50 seat canal narrow boat becoming ‘cilled ’ in a deep lock.
It involved the police, fire, ambulance, and various other bodies / responders.
We actually ran this as a ‘live casualty’ scenario. We used ‘EMS’ staff as passengers. These were professional responders and some thought this exercise was a hoot!
Until it began!!!
The exercise was way outside the box, and proved to be a steep learning curve for all parties, but in the end it was a worthwhile exercise. Had it been for real I dread to think what would have happened.
Do things like this ever happen for real? You bet they do! That’s why exercises should be for real.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/four-disabled-people-die-in-canal-sinking-1172796.html
 

 

Such a good point about the value of realistic and non-stop training.  Emergencies, when they happen, have a nasty habit of not following the rule book.   Nothing beats knowledge and experience.     

[rkacruiser]

8 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Such a good point about the value of realistic and non-stop training.  Emergencies, when they happen, have a nasty habit of not following the rule book.   Nothing beats knowledge and experience.     

 

Read None Were Lost about the Prinsendam tragedy in 1980.  Idubs comment will be confirmed.

[Heidi13]

58 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Read None Were Lost about the Prinsendam tragedy in 1980.  Idubs comment will be confirmed.

 

Affirmative, no fatalities and also no serious injuries.

[Aquahound]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 3:03 AM, dmndlil said:

Our last few sailings on Carnival have all been inside muster drills.  I quite possibly may depend on which ship you are sailing on. 

 

Yes.  It absolutely depends on the ship.  Some were designed for outside muster, some inside, and some a combination.  RCI's aging Majesty of the Seas, for example, is mostly outside but has a couple lifeboats that muster in one of the lounges. 

[Hlitner]

I want to take this back to the post COVID-19 issue.  It is absolutely impossible to have any kind of social distancing during muster drills.  Cruise ships can certainly mandate that everyone must wear a mask, but you still are going to have an awful lot of folks crammed into places where they are in close proximity to each other.   One irony is that the very drill intended to better ensure the life and safety of passengers and crew will possibly serve to enhance the spread of a deadly virus.

 

Hank

[ed01106]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I want to take this back to the post COVID-19 issue.  It is absolutely impossible to have any kind of social distancing during muster drills.  Cruise ships can certainly mandate that everyone must wear a mask, but you still are going to have an awful lot of folks crammed into places where they are in close proximity to each other.   One irony is that the very drill intended to better ensure the life and safety of passengers and crew will possibly serve to enhance the spread of a deadly virus.

 

Hank

No ship should sail unless they can have a muster drill while safely preventing disease spread.  If that requires reducing capacity to 25% or shutting down the industry until there is a vaccine than so be it.  But neither safety issue should be compromised for a recreational activity.

[Hlitner]

2 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

No ship should sail unless they can have a muster drill while safely preventing disease spread.  If that requires reducing capacity to 25% or shutting down the industry until there is a vaccine than so be it.  But neither safety issue should be compromised for a recreational activity.

Hmm.  And what if there never is a vaccine?   And since there is no way to guarantee no disease spread in airports and on planes I guess it is time to also shut down the entire airline industry.  And then all the restaurants, barber shops, beauty parlors, etc.  And public transit would also need to be shut down!  

 

So here is the big news.  The world has functioned with diseases for an awful long time and never tried shutting down the earth.  If cruise lines had to shut down to prevent disease spread they would have been shut down years ago.  It is a risk we all take whenever we leave our own cocoon.   Ultimately we have to deal with the ole risk-benefit!  Once upon a time folks made their own decisions based on personal risk tolerance.  But now, there are a few folks who think they need to make all of our decisions for us (the end of personal responsibility and free will).  So be it.  I never thought I would see the day when China has more freedom then here at home.  But in China I can get a haircut :).  At home, they would revoke the license of my barber if she opened her doors.  In Shanghai I could choose my restaurant for dinner tonight.  At home, all the restaurants are closed and if one dared to open the government would revoke their license (that recently happened a few miles from my home).  So who has the freer society?

 

Hank

[ATC cruiser]

You should read about their lockdown from a few months ago. There is no way that any of that would have happened here. 

[chengkp75]

18 hours ago, ATC cruiser said:

You should read about their lockdown from a few months ago. There is no way that any of that would have happened here. 

Yeah, I don't see the US forcing people who violated the stay at home order being forced back into their building, and then the police welding the door shut, to enforce the lock down.

[Elaine5715]

On 6/6/2020 at 11:08 AM, chengkp75 said:

Yeah, I don't see the US forcing people who violated the stay at home order being forced back into their building, and then the police welding the door shut, to enforce the lock down.

Only because our Governor quarantined welders otherwise she would have considered it.   

[Hlitner]

On 6/6/2020 at 11:08 AM, chengkp75 said:

Yeah, I don't see the US forcing people who violated the stay at home order being forced back into their building, and then the police welding the door shut, to enforce the lock down.

True.  On the other hand we did see (on a major TV station) a privately owned gym (in New Jersey) which was forced to close by the police who then changed the locks on the doors so the owner could not even access his own business.  I guess you could say that changing the locks was more practical then welding the door shut (especially if that door was made of wood).  And as I said, in my own county a restaurant , that dared to defy our Governor, opened to customers taking extreme care to enforce social distancing.  Our Governor quickly had their health license (necessary to operate) revoked!  Another county in are area decided they were going to start gradually reopening (against the Governor's wishes) and the Governor threatened to pull certain State funding from that county.  My own barber would love to give me a haircut but if she were to open her shop her license would be revoked along with her ability to make a living.  All without any due process.

 

Hank

 

 

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I guess you could say that changing the locks was more practical then welding the door shut (especially if that door was made of wood).

But no one lived in the gym, and relied on that door for a fire exit.

[KnowTheScore]

My 2penneth on the issue of Muster Drills

 

1.  They can't be done by video imho because every individual ship and every individual captain may have specific things they need to address.   The bulk of the captain's spiel is mandated standard dialogue from marine rules and I can probably recite most of it off the top of my head after close to 40 cruises.  But there may always be additional information that a captain needs to put across, perhaps certain parts of the ship are under repair and not to be used in an emergency etc etc.    They can't keep recording lots of individual videos.

 

2.  There is a need (presumably legal req't) that they verify that people have attended a drill and have listened to and/or watched any required information.  That can only be done by having staff physically watch people attend and record their cruise cards.

 

3.  There is a need for people to physically attend their designated muster station in order to know where it is and to be told where the exit doors are in that area that will be used in an emergency.

 

The above present social distancing issues but  they are not insurmountable.

 

An obvious solution would be as follows:

 

1.  At a designated time (say 3:30pm) the captain orders all passengers to go to their cabins and remain there until called for muster drill

 

2.  In batches, perhaps by deck and odd/even numbers the captain calls people down from their cabins to their designated muster station where, thanks to limited batch numbers they remain socially distanced.   Their cruise cards are scanned on entry.   This teaches them how to get to their muster station from cabin in an emergency.  The staff highlight where the emergency exits are and demonstrate donning life jackets and give out any specific information pertinent to that ship or its current circumstances.   The passengers themselves do not bring their own life jackets as it presents a hygiene risk but if they wish to they can try their jackets in their cabins and phone reception for help if they don't understand how to use them.

 

3.  After the above visit to the muster station those passengers are then directed to the large theatre on the ship.  This will be co-ordinated so that all those in the batch that left their cabins all move to the theatre together from various muster stations.

Again the batch sizing means that people are socially distanced in the theatre.  Cruise cards are scanned a second time on entry to the theatre.   In the theatre they are given the main oral side of the muster drill by the Captain or other spokesperson.  i.e. the long spiel.  The Captain could even be present on stage to personally welcome people and give some "style" to the proceedings.

 

4.  Whilst the theatre drill is in progress the next batch of passengers are instructed to leave their cabins and go to their muster stations.   Everyone else remains in their cabins.

 

5.   The theatre passengers are told to return to cabin and stay there.   The next batch of passengers move from muster stations to the theatre.   The next batch of passengers move from cabin to muster station.

 

This is all carefully co-ordinated such that at no time are there masses of people milling about bumping into each other.  No movements from cabin to station or from station to theatre or from theatre back to cabins happen at the same time.

 

Everyone stays in their cabin until specifically called out and once they return from their drills they again stay in the cabin until the entire ship's compliment have been drilled.  

 

Simple rotation system using 2 locations to ensure careful and controlled movement of passengers.

 

.

[ATC cruiser]

Just out of curiosity,  how many of these batches do you think it would take to get through all the passengers?