Once sailing resumes, do you think an entire ship would be "quarantined" for a + and not allowed to come into home port?

[bigrednole]

It only takes one person. Doesn't matter the mode.

[chipmaster]

3 hours ago, bigrednole said:

I would be willing to bet if you told 4,000 people on a cruise ship if 1 person gets Covid-19, that they would not be able to return to port until 100% of passengers test negative and you will be stuck in a prison cell until that happens, no one would get on a cruise. It would cripple fleets world wide. Cruises should be no different than taxi, Uber, Lyft, air travel, trains, buses, etc. There is no difference on the methods of travel and that is what the real problem is.

 

Prison is an extreme position, more likely quarantined for 14 days.

 

Uber, Lyft, etc. are modes of transportation, cruising isn't transportation it is leisure and similar to sports and elective, don't confuse the difference between required for living or activity that makes living more enjoyable.

 

cruisemom42 got it right, LOL, didn't see her earlier post, LOL

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by chipmaster

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, bigrednole said:

Cruises should be no different than taxi, Uber, Lyft, air travel, trains, buses, etc. There is no difference on the methods of travel and that is what the real problem is.

 

I would say the comparison is closer to a resort or hotel and we have seen in various countries that they quarantine these facilities when there is an outbreak. The real problem is cruise ships are not the responsibility of any country so therefore nobody has an obligation to look after then when things go wrong. 

[sverigecruiser]

11 hours ago, clo said:

But it's already happened - more than once - and there are people who say they would cruise tomorrow.

 

But will it happen again? I think no because I don't think that there will be any cruises until they know what to do if they have a Covid-19 case onboard. 

 

[clo]

13 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

But will it happen again? I think no because I don't think that there will be any cruises until they know what to do if they have a Covid-19 case onboard. 

 

Oh, I get you now. I think it's going to be a long time before that and a number of thorny issues like that are worked out. I shudder to imagine all the countries who will be involved.

[ldubs]

On 7/1/2020 at 10:24 PM, sverigecruiser said:

 

I believe that you are wrong!

 

Without knowing where to dock if a cruiseship have cases of Covid-19 there won't be any cruises, I think.

 

Cruises are as you said for entertainment so without a plan it should be stupid to start cruising again so without a plan which include where to dock I don't think that there will be any cruises.

 

If the plan being considered really is to disembark anyone testing positive, then it seems clear that cruise lines are going to have to reach agreements with every gov't involved.  It just seems an essential step.  

[cbr663]

26 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

If the plan being considered really is to disembark anyone testing positive, then it seems clear that cruise lines are going to have to reach agreements with every gov't involved.  It just seems an essential step.  

I don't think the plan being considered is to disembark anyone testing positive.  This paragraph from the CDC regulations March 14th seems to indicate to me that the CDC does not want this:

 

"…the intensive care requirements for cruise ship passengers with severe disease stresses a healthcare system already overburdened and facing a shortage of beds needed for influenza and other seasonal and critical healthcare conditions.  The addition of further cruise ship cases place the healthcare workers at substantial increased risk.  Specifically, these cases divert medical resources away from persons with other medical problems and other COVID-19 cases, consuming previous diagnostics, therapeutics and protective equipment.  Ongoing concern with cruise ship transmission also draw valuable resources away from the immense Federal, state and local effort to contain and mitigate the spread of COVID-19.  Safely evacuating, triaging, quarantining and repatriating cruise ship passengers involves complex logistics, incurs financial costs at all levels of government and diverts resources away from larger efforts to suppress or mitigate the virus."

[ldubs]

7 minutes ago, cbr663 said:

I don't think the plan being considered is to disembark anyone testing positive.  This paragraph from the CDC regulations March 14th seems to indicate to me that the CDC does not want this:

 

"…the intensive care requirements for cruise ship passengers with severe disease stresses a healthcare system already overburdened and facing a shortage of beds needed for influenza and other seasonal and critical healthcare conditions.  The addition of further cruise ship cases place the healthcare workers at substantial increased risk.  Specifically, these cases divert medical resources away from persons with other medical problems and other COVID-19 cases, consuming previous diagnostics, therapeutics and protective equipment.  Ongoing concern with cruise ship transmission also draw valuable resources away from the immense Federal, state and local effort to contain and mitigate the spread of COVID-19.  Safely evacuating, triaging, quarantining and repatriating cruise ship passengers involves complex logistics, incurs financial costs at all levels of government and diverts resources away from larger efforts to suppress or mitigate the virus."

 

Thanks CBR.  I thought I read somewhere that someone was saying the plan was to disembark anyone who tested positive.   I'm not sure if that was from a cruise line or just speculation.   

 

Anyway, the CDC actually does have a guideline for the quarantine of sick crew and passengers at disembarkation.  But I don't think it is intended to be mid cruise and it is just an interim guideline.   

 

It will be interesting to see what protocols are eventually adopted.   I continue to think the one key missing ingredient is a good plan for passenger/crew who become infected.   

[cbr663]

3 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Thanks CBR.  I thought I read somewhere that someone was saying the plan was to disembark anyone who tested positive.   I'm not sure if that was from a cruise line or just speculation.   

 

Anyway, the CDC actually does have a guideline for the quarantine of sick crew and passengers at disembarkation.  But I don't think it is intended to be mid cruise and it is just an interim guideline.   

 

It will be interesting to see what protocols are eventually adopted.   I continue to think the one key missing ingredient is a good plan for passenger/crew who become infected.   

 When the CDC first issued the Do Not Sail Order it's intention was for the cruise lines to provide the complete level of care on ship for anyone who becomes infected.  This was to be achieved by increasing the medical level of care on individual ships and creating hospital ships to transfer people who needed continued care.

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, cbr663 said:

 When the CDC first issued the Do Not Sail Order it's intention was for the cruise lines to provide the complete level of care on ship for anyone who becomes infected.  This was to be achieved by increasing the medical level of care on individual ships and creating hospital ships to transfer people who needed continued care.

 

I do still see that.  Thx. 👍

[ldubs]

8 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

If the plan being considered really is to disembark anyone testing positive, then it seems clear that cruise lines are going to have to reach agreements with every gov't involved.  It just seems an essential step.  

 

8 hours ago, cbr663 said:

I don't think the plan being considered is to disembark anyone testing positive.  This paragraph from the CDC regulations March 14th seems to indicate to me that the CDC does not want this:

 

 

I did find the reference.  It is part of the EU's plan for cruises, which of course has nothing to do with the CDC.  

 

Among other things the plan includes:  

 

• Arrangements for repatriation
• Arrangements for the shoreside quarantine of any passenger or crew member who had close contact with an infected party who have tested negative
• Arrangement for the shoreside quarantine of any passenger or crew member who tested positive and is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic after close contacted with an infected person

Take care.   

[sverigecruiser]

10 hours ago, ldubs said:

cruise lines are going to have to reach agreements with every gov't involved

 

This is what I think must happen. No agreements, no cruises. 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

 

I did find the reference.  It is part of the EU's plan for cruises, which of course has nothing to do with the CDC.  

 

Among other things the plan includes:  

 

• Arrangements for repatriation
• Arrangements for the shoreside quarantine of any passenger or crew member who had close contact with an infected party who have tested negative
• Arrangement for the shoreside quarantine of any passenger or crew member who tested positive and is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic after close contacted with an infected person

Take care.   

This is the main difference between the EU and CDC requirements, the EU is allowing cruise ships to disembark and treat patients or quarantine patient contacts ashore, while the CDC wants the cruise lines to provide entire ships to act as hospitals or quarantine quarters for any cases.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

This is the main difference between the EU and CDC requirements, the EU is allowing cruise ships to disembark and treat patients or quarantine patient contacts ashore, while the CDC wants the cruise lines to provide entire ships to act as hospitals or quarantine quarters for any cases.

And both of those have problems. For the EU plan, how will you get ports to agree to take on infected passengers. For the CDC plan, do they really expect there to be hospital ships trailing every cruise ship or maybe instead available at every port.

[d9704011]

18 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And both of those have problems. For the EU plan, how will you get ports to agree to take on infected passengers. For the CDC plan, do they really expect there to be hospital ships trailing every cruise ship or maybe instead available at every port.

Which may help explain why the ‘EU Plan’ has not yet been adopted (if ever) and the CDC’s current requirements for cruise lines to begin operating again have not been satisfied (and probably never will be).

[ontheweb]

16 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

Which may help explain why the ‘EU Plan’ has not yet been adopted (if ever) and the CDC’s current requirements for cruise lines to begin operating again have not been satisfied (and probably never will be).

Right, so how will cruises resume remains the question.

[d9704011]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

Right, so how will cruises resume remains the question.

I certainly don’t have an answer to that although (at least for travel in/around North America) it won’t be until the virus is considered under control by the various national health authorities.  Too bad for cruising, it’s really not their primary concern.

[ontheweb]

2 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

I certainly don’t have an answer to that although (at least for travel in/around North America) it won’t be until the virus is considered under control by the various national health authorities.  Too bad for cruising, it’s really not their primary concern.

I did not mean to imply that I expected an answer from you. Rather I was agreeing with you that neither the EU plan or CDC requirements were practical solutions. (And basically your previous post was agreeing with the my same contention. So both of us are on the same page on this issue.)

[chengkp75]

48 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And both of those have problems. For the EU plan, how will you get ports to agree to take on infected passengers. For the CDC plan, do they really expect there to be hospital ships trailing every cruise ship or maybe instead available at every port.

Well, the EU interim guideline is pursuant to the Healthy Gateways Joint Action, which is under the framework of the "Third Health Program", which is an EU regulation (regulations are binding on all EU members).  The Healthy Gateways is, I believe, an EU decision, which differs from a regulation in that it deals with a specific case,  and is binding only on those member states to which it applies (so those parts regarding passenger ship health and safety, the old ShipSan program, only apply to those member nations that have ocean ports).  So, if the interim guidelines are accepted, then they have force on the member nations whose ports the ships will call at, and essentially require the ports to agree to take infected or quarantined passengers.

 

I believe the CDC plan, which is totally onerous to the cruise lines, would be to have 3 ships ("hospital", "quarantine", and "accommodation" for those working on the other two ships) in each area (likely Florida (East Coast), Texas, and West Coast), where the ships could transfer infected or quarantined passengers to the waiting ships when cases are detected.  The ships would need to divert to where the 3 ships are stationed.  Whether or not the cruise lines would pool resources to provide these ships is another question.

[navybankerteacher]

47 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

Which may help explain why the ‘EU Plan’ has not yet been adopted (if ever) and the CDC’s current requirements for cruise lines to begin operating again have not been satisfied (and probably never will be).

The “EU Plan” is based upon an optimistic view that the population participating has largely contained spread of infection.  If implemented and there then happens to be any significant utilization of shoreside health facilities by off-loaded cases, you can be sure the plan would be quickly modified/cancelled.  

 

Simply put: it would work only if it were not really needed.

[K32682]

Among the ways long term care and seniors homes addressed an outbreak was to quarantine a ward/floor, put all the positive residents in it and restrict access.  As cruise ships share many of the same qualities as a long term care home a plan to do the same might be acceptable.  In this way the entire ship would not be quarantined only a portion of it. 

[cbr663]

10 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

 

I did find the reference.  It is part of the EU's plan for cruises, which of course has nothing to do with the CDC.  

 

Among other things the plan includes:  

 

• Arrangements for repatriation
• Arrangements for the shoreside quarantine of any passenger or crew member who had close contact with an infected party who have tested negative
• Arrangement for the shoreside quarantine of any passenger or crew member who tested positive and is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic after close contacted with an infected person

Take care.   

 

I thought these requirements were very vague when I first read them.  Repatriation to where?  Shoreside quarantine where?  How?  Who pays?  How quickly will this be arranged?  I am thinking of the many times that cruise ships are sailing near very small communities with very limited resources.  I know of many ports that are open primarily to just to service cruise ships.  These communities are practically ghost towns when the cruise season ends.

[ldubs]

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

This is the main difference between the EU and CDC requirements, the EU is allowing cruise ships to disembark and treat patients or quarantine patient contacts ashore, while the CDC wants the cruise lines to provide entire ships to act as hospitals or quarantine quarters for any cases.

 

But EU is further down the road with the pandemic.  The EU had a much harder view when the virus was spreading like wildfire.  I expect the US will follow a similar path with revised guidelines once we get things under control. 

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, cbr663 said:

 

I thought these requirements were very vague when I first read them.  Repatriation to where?  Shoreside quarantine where?  How?  Who pays?  How quickly will this be arranged?  I am thinking of the many times that cruise ships are sailing near very small communities with very limited resources.  I know of many ports that are open primarily to just to service cruise ships.  These communities are practically ghost towns when the cruise season ends.

 

Keep in mind we are talking about the EU here, and I would guess they are primarily thinking of their own member states' citizens. 

 

Repatriation means getting the person to their home country, whatever that country may be. There is not any other meaning.

 

Regarding health care costs, nationals that are part of the EU are entitled to medical care in any other EU country at the prevailing rate. For most EU countries, the cost would not be the major issue.

 

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, cbr663 said:

 

I thought these requirements were very vague when I first read them.  Repatriation to where?  Shoreside quarantine where?  How?  Who pays?  How quickly will this be arranged?  I am thinking of the many times that cruise ships are sailing near very small communities with very limited resources.  I know of many ports that are open primarily to just to service cruise ships.  These communities are practically ghost towns when the cruise season ends.

 

I think the tough part is how are cruise lines going to comply, which as I understand, means providing answers to those questions.   Cooperation and agreement with gov't agencies seems the only way these things will ever happen.  Also, I need to remind myself that these guidelines are for the current situation, which means primarily EU passengers.  A cruise to nowhere out of Germany with German passengers will be much easier to manage.  

 

These rules are going to be modified probably more than once as things progress.    By the time EU cruises open for US citizens, the rules will likely have evolved considerably.    I feel the same will happen to the CDC guidelines.  CDC guidelines are basically part of the border shut down.  As things progress the guidelines will change.