I heard a real quick discussion of whether the government should save the cruise industry

[drsel]

Not all ships were allowed to just dock and offload. The ship in question was refused by at least 4 countries after the announced shutdown. Now has been refused by Panama canal to return to its home port. Looking for another port.There are about half a dozen or so ships that have not officially shutdown yet. Mostly because no ports in their area will accept them, cases or not. 

 

1. How will they provide gourmet food to thousands of passengers for so many extra days?

2. What would be the likely daily program?

3. Will there be any entertainment on board?

4. Who is bearing the cost of 14 days extra on a cruise ship?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[drsel]

I shall attempt to answer my own questions
1. all passengers and crew will get ordinary basic food, rice and simple vegetables and salad only.
2. The daily program will be only eat and sleep, while confined to your cabin
3. There will be zero entertainment for all 14 days
4. The cruise line will bear the cost of everything

[chengkp75]

On 3/24/2020 at 5:00 PM, njhorseman said:

Not Chapter 11 because the three major cruise line holding companies are not incorporated in the US, so bankruptcy should be subject to the laws of their country of domicile . NCLH is incorporated in Bermuda, RCCL in Liberia and Carnival Corp & plc in Panama ( Carnival Corp) and England and Wales (Carnival plc). 

Actually, US law allows foreign corporations to file for Chapter 11 reorganization protection.

[njhorseman]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, US law allows foreign corporations to file for Chapter 11 reorganization protection.

Thanks for pointing that out. It reminds me to not shoot from the hip just because something seems to make common sense. I could have done a Google search and come up with the correct answer in 30 seconds.

 

In digging into this a bit further I saw an article by a bankruptcy attorney who said even another bankruptcy attorney he spoke to didn't know that a foreign company could declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy in the US. Apparently all that foreign companies are required to have to qualify are operations or assets in the US. He mentioned a shipping company that opened an office in the US and then quickly declared bankruptcy.

 

The attorney mentioned that US bankruptcy is often used by international shipping companies...which I'm guessing explains why you're familiar with the process...that and the fact that you're a pretty smart guy in general...

[yman74]

Hello,

 

I am never been on a cruise and not all that interested in it but I do have a general cruise question. There are cruise ships stuck out there with nowhere to go and the cruise companies are also looking for bailouts. They pay taxes to the their flag of convenience so why don't they turn to those countries when they need help? They corporations don't want to follow us law but they want our help? *****

 

[Flatbush Flyer]

The Outlaw Sea

Book by William Langewiesche

[MCC retired]

RCI and , Carnival Corp are US companies and taxed accordingly despite all ships being foreign flagged.

[AF-1]

I hear what you are saying.  How do you know if the CEO's of the different cruise lines have not gone to the other countries for a loan?  I don't think the cruise lines have gone to capital hill and lobbied for money.  The CEO of Carnival is a personal friend of the President;  so he struck up a conversation about it; nothing more.  

[njhorseman]

48 minutes ago, MCC retired said:

RCI and , Carnival Corp are US companies and taxed accordingly despite all ships being foreign flagged.

You're wrong. They are incorporated in foreign countries...Royal in Liberia, NCL in Bermuda and Carnival has dual incorporation in Panama and England.

Due to section 883 of the IRS code, they pay essentially nothing in US federal corporate income taxes because that are incorporated outside the US.  NCL pays some because of its Hawaii-based ship Pride of America that is US flagged and operates only with the US.

Edited March 28, 2020 by njhorseman

[Aquahound]

43 minutes ago, MCC retired said:

RCI and , Carnival Corp are US companies and taxed accordingly despite all ships being foreign flagged.

 

They are not US companies.  RCCL is Liberian and Carnival Corp is Panamanian.  

[paul929207]

• The only taxes that Carnival Corp pays is the employment taxes(social security and medicare) for their US employees

[MCC retired]

2 hours ago, MCC retired said:

RCI and , Carnival Corp are US companies and taxed accordingly despite all ships being foreign flagged.

Sorry , my error . Thinking HQ not Registration .

[CruiserBruce]

2 hours ago, paul929207 said:

• The only taxes that Carnival Corp pays is the employment taxes(social security and medicare) for their US employees

They don't pay any sales, fuel or other related taxes on their purchases (of which there is many millions each year)?

[drsel]

It is already confirmed in the news that there will be no bail out for The Cruise industry.

 

so I guess the richest cruisers will have to bailout The Cruise industry by paying much more for the most expensive and premium cabins

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

They don't pay any sales, fuel or other related taxes on their purchases (of which there is many millions each year)?

Nor do they pay any customs duty on parts or supplies imported into the US for the ship from overseas.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, drsel said:

It is already confirmed in the news that there will be no bail out for The Cruise industry.

 

so I guess the richest cruisers will have to bailout The Cruise industry by paying much more for the most expensive and premium cabins

If 9/11 and the 2008 recession are any indication, the lines will be discounting fares to get people back onboard.  Better to lose a little money than to lose a lot.

[drsel]

31 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If 9/11 and the 2008 recession are any indication, the lines will be discounting fares to get people back onboard.  Better to lose a little money than to lose a lot.

that's great news for all of us but i haven't seen any discounts except for few in February on Norwegian Jade and Royal Caribbean jewel

[iancal]

It is an economic and a political challenge.

 

Many cruise lines have given folks the impression that they are US companies.  This is clearly not the case.  They have, for years, organized their corporate affairs to be be based in foreign countries in order to pay a very small amount of tax and to avoid US legislation regarding safely, labor, etc.

 

To add to that, the vast majority of their employees are not American.

 

So it is very much a political problem for all Governments that might be willing to provide bail out money.  If it came down to a choice, should an American company like Boeing that is based in America and has a majority of American employees be first in line for a bail out or should a foreign based cruise company with a minority of American employees and history of doing everything to avoid paying US taxes be given priority?  

Edited March 29, 2020 by iancal

[ed01106]

3 minutes ago, iancal said:

It is an economic and a political challenge.

 

Many cruise lines have given folks the impression that they are US companies.  This is clearly not the case.  They have, for years, organized their corporate affairs to be be based in foreign countries in order to pay a very small amount of tax and to avoid US legislation regarding safely, labor, etc.

 

To add to that, the vast majority of their employees are not American.

 

So it is very much a political problem for all Governments that might be willing to provide bail out money.  If it came down to a choice, should an American company like Boeing that is based in America and has a majority of American employees be first in line for a bail out or should a foreign based cruise company with a minority of American employees and history of doing everything to avoid paying US taxes be given priority?  

Add to that, if Boeing was to disappear our ability to equip our air force in a time of war would be compromised.  If Carnival went bankrupt our our vacation options would be diminished.    

[bobandsherry]

Many seem to harp on cruise lines shouldn't get stimulus because they don't pay taxes here. Well have you looked at other major US corporations and see how little they pay in taxes?

 

From link below...

 

"Earlier this year, ITEP reported Netflix and Amazon paid no federal taxes. Other companies on this list include Chevron, Delta Airlines, Eli Lilly, General Motors, Gannett, Goodyear Tire and Rubber, Halliburton, IBM, Jetblue Airways, Principal Financial, Salesforce.com, US Steel, and Whirlpool."

 

Just sayin' as you seem to preach with blinders on. Perhaps step back and look at the bigger picture and what a company contributes to the economy, it's more than taxes people.

 

https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

 

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[clo]

12 hours ago, drsel said:

It is already confirmed in the news that there will be no bail out for The Cruise industry.

 

so I guess the richest cruisers will have to bailout The Cruise industry by paying much more for the most expensive and premium cabins

Maybe they should switch to European lines.

[CruiserBruce]

7 hours ago, drsel said:

that's great news for all of us but i haven't seen any discounts except for few in February on Norwegian Jade and Royal Caribbean jewel

Its too soon. There are a couple of other smaller priorities before discounting fares 9 or 10 months away. Like getting cruises canceled, and refunding fares.

[iancal]

My comment was not so much about how much tax a company pays but rather whether they happen to be resident in the country and whether majority of their employees are American.

 

It seems to me that the corporations that bobandsherry mentioned are US corporations.  They pay taxes indirectly and their employees pay tax.  They have a duty to their shareholder to practice tax avoidance and to take advantage of the American taxation regime.   Everyone practices tax avoidance.

 

The bottom line remains that they are not US Corporations, the vast majority of their assets are foreign built and the vast majority of their employees are not American despite their efforts to imply otherwise. 

 

 If we subsequently discovered that one cruise line was a Chinese registered company  what would be the public sentiment to a bail them out?  Or is it just OK to bail out cruise line corporations that are based in Panama, Bahamas, UK, the Netherlands, or whereever?   Tough questions.  

Edited March 29, 2020 by iancal

[bobandsherry]

 

59 minutes ago, iancal said:

My comment was not so much about how much tax a company pays but rather whether they happen to be resident in the country and whether majority of their employees are American.

So you are not one who harps on taxes, so my point was not addressed to you. But since you mentioned your criteria as being us based and majority of us employees, here's info for Eli Lilly. They are US but have more nonUS employees than US. So what's your take on that? And remember that they pay no US taxes.

 

GM, who will be at the front of the line for handout/stimulus, also employs more employees outside the US than in the US.  Of the 180,000 employees GM reported, 86,000 are in the US.  And BTW, since you also mentioned China, GM has joint venture in China that has more than 58,000 employees. 

I'm sure I can go through the list of companies who pay no tax and find other companies who pay no tax and have fewer US based employees than world-wide.

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Edited March 29, 2020 by bobandsherry

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, bobandsherry said:

Many seem to harp on cruise lines shouldn't get stimulus because they don't pay taxes here. Well have you looked at other major US corporations and see how little they pay in taxes?

 

From link below...

 

"Earlier this year, ITEP reported Netflix and Amazon paid no federal taxes. Other companies on this list include Chevron, Delta Airlines, Eli Lilly, General Motors, Gannett, Goodyear Tire and Rubber, Halliburton, IBM, Jetblue Airways, Principal Financial, Salesforce.com, US Steel, and Whirlpool."

 

Just sayin' as you seem to preach with blinders on. Perhaps step back and look at the bigger picture and what a company contributes to the economy, it's more than taxes people.

 

https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

 

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And Amazon as an example not only pays no federal taxes, but makes demands on areas for tax exemptions if they are intending to move to an area.